Pope makes eejits of the Church again.

[Smoke]

He said nothing about homosexuals themselves being dangerous. The media has been determined to misunderstand this.

It seems to me that you've determined to misrepresent it.

The pope made his remarks in the context of a nearly worldwide campaign against the legal protection of LGBTI people, in which he has taken a strong position in favor of the oppression of those people. These are not academic musings about gender theory. The pope's speech was intended to rally the troops, to continue the fight to impose the peculiar ideas of his church on the world at large, as he made abundantly clear:

Since faith in the Creator is an essential part of the Christian Credo, the Church cannot and should not confine itself to passing on the message of salvation alone. It has a responsibility for the created order and ought to make this responsibility prevail, even in public.
​

 

[Darkwater]

(1) The pope has created a stinking quagmire of weasel worded claptrap (at best).

(2) the pope is encouraging gender hate crimes(at worst)

or is he somewhere inbetween kinda inept bigotted fool?

Tyrant,Fool,or foolish tyrant?

FTP

 

[Magic Man]

Did you happen to read my post?

Which one? What did it say?

 

[Mister Emu]

Point of clarification: I thought that the Church was okay with Natural Family Planning, no? While I don't think it's a particularily effective method of birth control, I do think that the intent is present in it to have a sexual act that is not open to procreation.

Yes, the whole reason Natural Family Planning is ok in the Church is because it is open to procreation. Now, I can't speak for the intent of the of people who use the method, but they are supposed to be open as well

Which one? What did it say?

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of natural...

The co-existance of behaviors in humans and other animals does not necessitate that the behavior is natural to humanity... Female praying mantis kill their mate, if a woman did it, the fact that it exists in 'nature' would not make it natural human behavior...

Now, I'm not argueing either way in this debate.. just wanted to make that clear

 

[Magic Man]

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of natural...

The co-existance of behaviors in humans and other animals does not necessitate that the behavior is natural to humanity... Female praying mantis kill their mate, if a woman did it, the fact that it exists in 'nature' would not make it natural human behavior...

Now, I'm not argueing either way in this debate.. just wanted to make that clear

Well, the point is that it happens "in nature" and so it's natural. for homosexuals homosexual acts are natural. For heterosexuals, they are somewhat unnatural. It being natural doesn't make it right, and it being unnatural doesn't make it wrong. For instance, I would say that to some, murder is natural. However, that doesn't make it right. As for your example of the praying mantis, it would be unusual for a human woman to do that, but it might not be unnatural. There's a difference.

 

[Storm]

LGBTI people,

If this wasn't a typo, could you please tell me what the I stands for?

 

[Azakel]

If this wasn't a typo, could you please tell me what the I stands for?

I think it stand for Intersexuality there Storm.

 

[Smoke]

I think it stand for Intersexuality there Storm.

Correct.

 

[Storm]

Thanks to you both. (I should have thought of that.)

 

[challupa]

Hello! You’re in another dimension, this is not a call to violence against anybody, the Pope is the leader of billions of soul (those in the Christian faith), he has the highest of call, to call his people (God’s flock) out of the corruptible world, to live in a spiritual world, to obey God, and to keep His Church clean, we must withdraw from abominable corruptions, such as homosexuality and murders of the unborn, to seek the Kingdom of God, again I must point out to you that these are instructions to his flock.
Did you read the article?
He explained that defending God's creation was not limited to saving the environment, but also about protecting man from self-destruction.
Is this a call to violence?
To me the way to defend is to stay away from what corrupts/destroys utterly, these are indeed two of the major ones, unnatural lust, and murder, that destroy body and soul.
When the Roman Catholic Church defends God's Creation, "it does not only defend the earth, water and the air... but (it) also protects man from his own destruction," he said.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
The Pope is a Christian and preaches Jesus warning to His people, defend, oppose, rebuke, no call to violence that I can see, where do you see this man calling to violence?

Just to be clear, I did not say it was a "call" to violence, I said that many people will use his speech as a "justification" to be violent or bigoted against gay people because the leader of the Catholic church says it can lead to the destruction of mankind. Religious people are very serious about things they think could corrupt them and somehow prevent them from getting into heaven. If the pope says that acting on homosexual urges is wrong and equates it with the same level of seriousness as the plight of the environment then it is quaranteed that some of the more "zealous" of his "flock" will take it as their god given right to persecute gays. Some even believe it is important that they do this in order to not get corrupted by these people and see it as a salvation issue. I have interviewed many people that believe that so I know what I'm talking about. That is why the leader of an influential organization needs to be responsible when telling his people things. He can't be so naive to not understand there are people that think like that and that his words will just reconfirm in their minds that they have every right to persecute or be aggressive towards gay people. You may not do this, but there are people that would and many that do. I believe it is irresponsible to do or say things from a position of authority that have the potential to cause more division in the world.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Since faith in the Creator is an essential part of the Christian Credo, the Church cannot and should not confine itself to passing on the message of salvation alone. It has a responsibility for the created order and ought to make this responsibility prevail, even in public.

Midnight Blue,
1. This was his speech to the Roman curia, it was not his Urbi et Orbi
Read the context of that statement:

The first is the affirmation which we find at the beginning of the account of creation: there we hear of the Creator Spirit which hovers over the waters, creates the world and constantly renews it. Faith in the Creator Spirit is an essential part of the Christian Credo. The fact that matter carries within itself a mathematical structure, is full of spirit, and forms the foundation on which the modern natural sciences rest. Only because is structured in an intelligent fashion is our spirit competent to interpret it and to actively refashion it. Because this intelligent structure proceeds from the same Spirit Creator which has given us the spirit to us, it brings with a task and a responsibility. The ultimate foundation for our responsibility towards the earth rests on our beliefs about creation. The earth is not simply our possession which we can plunder according to our interests and desires. It is rather a gift of the Creator who has designed its intrinsic laws and with this has given us the basic directions for us to adhere as stewards of his creation. The fact that the earth, the cosmos, mirror the Creator Spirit, clearly means that their rational structures which, transcending the mathematical order, become almost palpable in our experience, bear within themselves an ethical orientation. The Spirit which has formed them, is more than mathematics, he is the Good in person, using the language of creation, and points us to the way of right living.

Since faith in the Creator is an essential part of the Christian Credo, the Church cannot and should not confine itself to passing on the message of salvation alone. It has a responsibility for the created order and ought to make this responsibility prevail, even in public. And in so doing, it ought to safeguard not only the earth, water, and air as gifts of creation, belonging to everyone. It ought also to protect man against the destruction of himself.

The public responsibility that Pope is talking about is foremost, in context, about the protection of the environment and protecting man against the destruction of himself. He then proceeds, it is true, to link new theories of gender as destructive to man. But it is only an example of the general concern he just stated above. He said we must protect "man from destroying himself". He never says that we must protect "man from being destroyed by homosexuals". He links new theories of gender, along side with other heterosexual deviancies (re: Humane Vitae) as part of this threat.

He finishes underscoring Humane Vitae which urges that we " defend love against sexuality as a consumer entity, the future as opposed to the exclusive pretext of the present, and the nature of man against its manipulation."

 

[Mister Emu]

Well, the point is that it happens "in nature" and so it's natural.

As I said, it depends on what you mean by natural... if all you mean is that a behavior exists, then yes...

 

[Smoke]

Midnight Blue,
1. This was his speech to the Roman curia, it was not his Urbi et Orbi

Do you think a speech to the curia is meaningless or private? After all, the Vatican released the speech. It's not as if reporters stole into the palace and tore pages out of his diary. And it means the same thing, anyway.

 

[emiliano]

Just to be clear, I did not say it was a "call" to violence, I said that many people will use his speech as a "justification" to be violent or bigoted against gay people because the leader of the Catholic church says it can lead to the destruction of mankind. Religious people are very serious about things they think could corrupt them and somehow prevent them from getting into heaven. If the pope says that acting on homosexual urges is wrong and equates it with the same level of seriousness as the plight of the environment then it is quaranteed that some of the more "zealous" of his "flock" will take it as their god given right to persecute gays. Some even believe it is important that they do this in order to not get corrupted by these people and see it as a salvation issue. I have interviewed many people that believe that so I know what I'm talking about. That is why the leader of an influential organization needs to be responsible when telling his people things. He can't be so naive to not understand there are people that think like that and that his words will just reconfirm in their minds that they have every right to persecute or be aggressive towards gay people. You may not do this, but there are people that would and many that do. I believe it is irresponsible to do or say things from a position of authority that have the potential to cause more division in the world.

To Challupa, here we go again, as I have said several times in this thread, this is a massage to his flock, those that attend mass where scriptures are read and applied to our times manifolds issues, the article clearly states “The Pope was delivering his end-of-year address to senior Vatican staff.” his staff, Where does this fits “I said that many people will use his speech as a "justification" to be violent or bigoted against gay people because the leader of the Catholic church says it can lead to the destruction of mankind. Religious people are very serious about things they think could corrupt them and somehow prevent them from getting into heaven” the pope is calling for a clean up of their ranks first, this pope wants to clean the Church, these people, the pope’s staff are highly trained in theology, so what chances are there that they go the way that you slander suggest? You should read the article before expressing you opinion, are you preaching hate against the RCC? Are you a bigot?, I said this before as well, the plight of the environment has the same common cause, lust for wealth, the remedy is the same, virtues, for sexual aberrations and vices abstinence, continence, self control, if we don’t heed the warnings it is as scripture says “rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” those like your good self, that interviews “ I have interviewed many people that believe that so I know what I'm talking about” .No you don’t and you are a bigger bigot, because you are a slanderous one, people that shoots their mouth as you do should be more responsible, some one may believe you konow anything.
http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&lpver=3&ref=12

 

[challupa]

To Challupa, here we go again, as I have said several times in this thread, this is a massage to his flock, those that attend mass where scriptures are read and applied to our times manifolds issues, the article clearly states “The Pope was delivering his end-of-year address to senior Vatican staff.” his staff, Where does this fits “I said that many people will use his speech as a "justification" to be violent or bigoted against gay people because the leader of the Catholic church says it can lead to the destruction of mankind. Religious people are very serious about things they think could corrupt them and somehow prevent them from getting into heaven” the pope is calling for a clean up of their ranks first, this pope wants to clean the Church, these people, the pope’s staff are highly trained in theology, so what chances are there that they go the way that you slander suggest? You should read the article before expressing you opinion, are you preaching hate against the RCC? Are you a bigot?, I said this before as well, the plight of the environment has the same common cause, lust for wealth, the remedy is the same, virtues, for sexual aberrations and vices abstinence, continence, self control, if we don’t heed the warnings it is as scripture says “rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” those like your good self, that interviews “ I have interviewed many people that believe that so I know what I'm talking about” .No you don’t and you are a bigger bigot, because you are a slanderous one, people that shoots their mouth as you do should be more responsible, some one may believe you konow anything.

No I do not hate the RCC faith. Yes I realize he was addressing his senior staff. No I don't believe it was private because for obvious reasons the public know what he said. Yes I have read the article. Yes I believe the senior staff will use what he said to enforce the non-rights of homosexuals. They see it as sinful so there is no reason why they would not use it. Yes I do believe the church should clean itself up as there are many charges against them at the moment for homosexual abuses against children. No I don't see any problem with homosexuals acting on their urges between consenting adults. Yes I have done many interviews with people that believe it's okay to physically attack and condemn homosexuals. So yes I do know what I am talking about when I say this will only strengthen people's conviction that it is a sin and therefore attack of gays is justifiable. If his private address had not become public, then maybe it would not be of such importance, but the fact is that it is public and the public with take it and run with it. You seem quite upset that anyone would question this statement by the pope. You obviously don't see the dangers in a leader making statements such as these. I do, but we don't, once again, see eye to eye on it so I think we should let it go.

 

[TashaN]

I don't see anything new. The Church oppose gay marriage, fornication, adultery, etc as many have said before me.

 

[logician]

Let's face it, the Catholic church remains out of touch with the needs of modern society, this pope has just reiterated that message.

 

[Father Heathen]

I don't see anything new. The Church oppose gay marriage, fornication, adultery, etc as many have said before me.

Yes, but it's still ridicilous to suggest that such things are a much bigger concern than the environment. "Sin" is a personal thing which bears no effect on the anything other than the individual (if at all) while the state of the environment affects every single living thing on the planet.

 

[Darkwater]

To Challupa, here we go again, as I have said several times in this thread, this is a massage to his flock, those that attend mass where scriptures are read and applied to our times manifolds issues, the article clearly states “The Pope was delivering his end-of-year address to senior Vatican staff.” his staff, Where does this fits “I said that many people will use his speech as a "justification" to be violent or bigoted against gay people because the leader of the Catholic church says it can lead to the destruction of mankind. Religious people are very serious about things they think could corrupt them and somehow prevent them from getting into heaven” the pope is calling for a clean up of their ranks first, this pope wants to clean the Church, these people, the pope’s staff are highly trained in theology, so what chances are there that they go the way that you slander suggest? You should read the article before expressing you opinion, are you preaching hate against the RCC? Are you a bigot?, I said this before as well, the plight of the environment has the same common cause, lust for wealth, the remedy is the same, virtues, for sexual aberrations and vices abstinence, continence, self control, if we don’t heed the warnings it is as scripture says “rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” those like your good self, that interviews “ I have interviewed many people that believe that so I know what I'm talking about” .No you don’t and you are a bigger bigot, because you are a slanderous one, people that shoots their mouth as you do should be more responsible, some one may believe you konow anything.

So it is ok to label,villify & target groups or individuals,as long as it is only to your trusty henchmen for dissemination from the top.

Being fully sanctioned by the top doG & his cronies does not pose any threat individuals or groups?The pope will just pull the wool further over the eyes of the common or garden Rocats in a kinda PC speech?

As long as they get a big laugh,then turn water into wine blah,blah,blah. oh,& then have the audacity play the bigot card,pointing & squeeling from behind the frocks of Papish heirarchy.

We need a strong European Leader who is willing to sue the rotten & corrupt vatican state for crimes against humanity,promotion of religious intolerance & intolerance in general.....beneath a smooth veneer lies a pure stinker whose persecution complex demands that he is sued & his entire network destroyed.

So long has they been above the law,hiding behind a thinly veiled cloak of deceit & silence,relying upon the *credability* of those who purchase power over the flock.

Equal rights should be enforced,no one being above the law.Women's rights,children's rights,gay rights,whatever's rights.Flush out Paedophile's & lecherous,morally corrupted freaks who misuse *positions of power*.


Away back to the *self created* dark ages.

 

[emiliano]

So it is ok to label,villify & target groups or individuals,as long as it is only to your trusty henchmen for dissemination from the top.

Being fully sanctioned by the top doG & his cronies does not pose any threat individuals or groups?The pope will just pull the wool further over the eyes of the common or garden Rocats in a kinda PC speech?

As long as they get a big laugh,then turn water into wine blah,blah,blah. oh,& then have the audacity play the bigot card,pointing & squeeling from behind the frocks of Papish heirarchy.

We need a strong European Leader who is willing to sue the rotten & corrupt vatican state for crimes against humanity,promotion of religious intolerance & intolerance in general.....beneath a smooth veneer lies a pure stinker whose persecution complex demands that he is sued & his entire network destroyed.

So long has they been above the law,hiding behind a thinly veiled cloak of deceit & silence,relying upon the *credability* of those who purchase power over the flock.

Equal rights should be enforced,no one being above the law.Women's rights,children's rights,gay rights,whatever's rights.Flush out Paedophile's & lecherous,morally corrupted freaks who misuse *positions of power*.


Away back to the *self created* dark ages.

You are in full flight of ideas, let try to bring you to reality, the pope does not propose to deny any right to gays, he is establishing the importance of addressing this issue in his Church, it is a warning to the faithful, his message must steam for the fact that there are people in the RRC that are proposing acceptance of homosexuality even in the Church/Christianity, his massage does not mention any plans for secular rights denials, it is clear Homosexuality must not be tolerated in the Church, do gays have a right to become Catholics? Can gays become Christian and keep practising this behaviour? Surely you know the answer to that , does this represent a denial of rights? What we have here is a discourse directed to the Church that it is well supported by our scriptures. Where in the article do you see a call for violence against gay? He does not want them in his Church, a clean up operation is on it ways, the RCC is on it way to the sound/clear doctrines of the past, and end to the idea that the church has to run it business as though it in an electoral campaign, the Church does not have to corrupt it doctrines to accommodate gays, they are not part of the church or the kingdom.
Are you proposing that the church is forced to accept them?