Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
"You guys"??? You don't think I'm a Baha'i, do you? I'm not. I'm an anti-relativist and an eclectic Christian. My passport lets me travel among traditional Christians.
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Pope invites the world to keep the Jewish Shabbat
- Thread starter IndigoChild5559
- Start date
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Hi Rival. Well that's wrong and I don't think you should be putting off people from keeping the seventh day Sabbath. Isaiah 56:1-5 says "Thus saith Yahweh, Keep ye justice, and do righteousness; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that holdeth it fast; that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the foreigner, that hath joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying, Yahweh will surely separate me from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith Yahweh of the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant: 5 Unto them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off."
The scripture clearly tells us 'blessed is the man' that does this, not simply the Jew.
Isaiah is talking to the Jewish people here.
The Torah says,
“You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you." Exodus 31:13.
It's a sign between G-d and the Jews specifically.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Hi Rival. Good afternoon. I agree, it is a sign between Yahweh and the children of Israel. Why wouldn' t it be? The Sabbath is a memorial of the creation week and specifically the resting day at the end of a literal 6 days. We have to ask ourselves if the Sabbath was made for just the flesh and blood descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In Isaiah 56:2 it says "Blessed is the man (not the Jew or Israelite) that does this, and the son of man [the word in the Hebrew is "Adam," the generic term for man in Hebrew meaning all races and nationalities] that hold it fast; that keep the Sabbath [obviously still referring to all peoples] from doing any evil" Yes a violation of the Sabbath is an evil, it doesn't matter what nationality one is.
The Sabbath Day is a blessing (Genesis 2:3) and not a curse and whether you are an Israelite or a member of any earthly ethnic group, you will be blessed if you keep it. It continues:
"For thus saith Yahweh of the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant: 5 Unto them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the foreigners that join themselves to Yahweh, to minister unto him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant; 7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples."
The Sabbath will be observed forever, as we read in Exodus 31:17 and in the Kingdom to come. Isaiah 66:23 says that from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Yahweh. The Sabbath Day is certainly the best day of the week and I see no reason why anyone should not see the importance of all keeping this Sacred Holy Day.
If the word 'man' meant essentially mankind, why then would the text need to clarify that 'also the foreigner'? This foreigner is also clarified as being 'joined to the L-rd' - that is, a convert. In the same sentence we read 'holdeth fast My covenant'. The covenant that includes Shabbat is the Torah; the covenant between G-d and the Jews.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
An interesting view from the other side: Jewish Catholics are permitted by the Catholic church to continue to observe a seventh day Sabbath as well as other Jewish traditions such as kashrus and the holy days (some are even nearly Orthodox in their observance). This is known as the Hebrew Catholic movement, although many in the movement prefer to be called Jewish Catholics, or Catholic Jews.
I'd personally call them something else, but I like being on Staff.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
LOL. I know, it's very difficult when Jews convert to the religion of those who have historically persecuted us.
On the other hand, it is a stunning reversal of the Catholic Church's policy in the distant past of forcing Jewish converts to give up Jewish traditions, and essentially for all practical purposes become non-Jews. Now THAT was a grievous insult.
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I don't see why that's so. You wanna be part of religion x? You gotta be willing to go all the way. Not that I really care about how Catholics choose to act, but that looks like they're being Diet Catholics or Catholics Lite. However you want to put it.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Let me preface this by saying for the sake of others in the forum that Jewish conversion to Catholicism is not a good thing. It still involves Trinitarianism, which is so forbidden to Jews that such Jews are considered apostate, as you already know.
"Going all the way" in any religion depends entirely on what that religion determines all the way to be.
For example, today the Catholic Church has determined that one can go all the way and still observe Shabbat, eat kosher, keep the Holy Days, etc. Back then, because of anti-Semitism, Jewish converts were, for example, prosecuted if they kept the Shabbat. IOW "going all the way" has changed to one which is less anti-Semitic.
For Catholics who are non-Jews who see Jewish Catholics still honoring their Jewish identify, they are more inclined to have a favorable opinion of Jews and Judaism, which is a darn good thing for us.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Catholicism works much the same way a Roman traffic officer works, namely telling people what they believe is right but then the drivers/congregants will decide what to do with that. And much the same applies to those in Judaism as well, with the exception of the chasidim.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Exactly. So how could the Church's past stance on Jewish apostates be "grievous"? It was entirely up to the Church to decide how Catholic Christians can act, and that's what they decided, and in all honesty, I totally agree with that stance. The legitimacy of hybridizing religions nowadays, is very, very, odd in my opinion. I don't know why the Church would decide something like that.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
No, officer, I don’t know who any of these people are. They just followed me in here.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Hi Rival. Good afternoon. I already explained the word 'man' and we know what it means. In terms of the scripture about foreigners. Well, let's look at it. "Also the foreigners that join themselves to Yahweh, to minister unto him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant; 7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer:" We could get in a discussion about the New Covenant, of Jeremiah 31, but Romans 11:15-17 clearly show that a wild olive branch is able to be grafted in to enter in to the Covenant with Yahweh. Yahshua kept the Sabbath Day (Luke 4:16) and we are instructed to follow his example (1 Corinthians 11:1). The Sabbath Day will be kept in the Kingdom (Isaiah 66:23).
The Sabbath was not made for the Jew, neither were the Jews the first to keep it holy. The Jews have been faithful in observing it over the centuries, and have perpetuated it down to our day, but this does not make it Jewish. Just because a German happens to observe the Fourth of July does not make it a German holiday. Neither is the Sabbath Jewish just because the Jews have observed it faithfully, while other races have neglected it.
Yahweh says that the Sabbath is His Sabbath, Levitcius 23:3. Yahshua the Messiah asserts that the Sabbath of Yahweh was made for man (not the Jew alone) in Mark 2:27. Yahweh did not need rest to restore his vitality after six days of work. Consequently, Almighty Yahweh inaugurated the scriptural seventh-day Sabbath with man in mind as well.
Except the word 'man' exists in a context. This context is Isaiah talking to the Jewish people. It does not need to make plain it means Jewish people, because it is already obvious from the situation that this is to whom it refers, as it's referencing a strictly Jewish concept and law.
Sure.
'every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant' - There are two covenants; the Noachide Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant. The Mosaic covenant is the only one that has the Sabbath. Nowhere else is anyone commanded to keep the Sabbath before Sinai.
You mean the one that says G-d will place His Law upon their hearts? The Covenant that G-d makes, 'with the House of Israel'? It says this,
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
We know which 'law' this is. It's the Torah.
Not relevant to me.
It says this,
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
This is just a poetic way of saying their worship will never end. It will be, as in English, day-in-day-out.
We've been through this.
Everything belongs to G-d.
Not my scripture.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
In Judaism, one has Torah plus centuries of commentaries. In the case of Catholicism, the Catechism covers the Catholic commentaries also formulated and carried over centuries. But then it is up to both the Jew and the Catholic as to what to do with them, and not all will be on the same page. Getting "excommunicated" from either is a very rare event, to say the least.