Pope Francis urges parents to support their gay children – not condemn them

[metis]

Children don't have sexual orientations... they learn from what they see.

Except for their hormones, whereas estrogen and testosterone kick in usually during the early teen years.

All of us have varying mixtures of the two, and that which has been mentioned many times before, sometimes the hormones don't match the "equipment".

 

[pearl]

Here is an interesting statement about that -- (do you agree?)

A key event in the long history of life on Earth was the appearance, between 2.4 and 2.0 billion years ago, of molecular oxygen, a product of photosynthetic organisms and an essential prerequisite to the formation of aerobic forms of life, including all animals (and humans). Another decisive event was the development of eukaryotic cells which eventually gave rise to the multicellular plants, fungi, animals, and humans. Although many details remain to be clarified, the actual occurrence of biological evolution is no longer just a theory, strongly suggested by fossil evidence, but not conclusively demonstrated by it. Evolution is now supported by overwhelming molecular proofs and has acquired the status of established fact. In the words of His Holiness John Paul II, it is “more than a hypothesis”
There was also wide agreement on the central role played in biological evolution by Darwinian natural selection, defined as a natural process that obligatorily brings out, from a collection of accidentally produced genetic variants, those most apt to variants, those most apt to survive and, especially, to produce progeny under prevailing conditions.

 

[YoursTrue]

A key event in the long history of life on Earth was the appearance, between 2.4 and 2.0 billion years ago, of molecular oxygen, a product of photosynthetic organisms and an essential prerequisite to the formation of aerobic forms of life, including all animals (and humans). Another decisive event was the development of eukaryotic cells which eventually gave rise to the multicellular plants, fungi, animals, and humans. Although many details remain to be clarified, the actual occurrence of biological evolution is no longer just a theory, strongly suggested by fossil evidence, but not conclusively demonstrated by it. Evolution is now supported by overwhelming molecular proofs and has acquired the status of established fact. In the words of His Holiness John Paul II, it is “more than a hypothesis”
There was also wide agreement on the central role played in biological evolution by Darwinian natural selection, defined as a natural process that obligatorily brings out, from a collection of accidentally produced genetic variants, those most apt to variants, those most apt to survive and, especially, to produce progeny under prevailing conditions.

The Bible disagrees with what the Pope is saying. Have a nice day. And Jesus also disagrees. Remember what Jesus said about creation? Anyway, it's been interesting talking to you. Bye for now while the Pope does say that it all started from -- God. hmmm...no further details from the vatican about that and evolution, is that right?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Except for their hormones, whereas estrogen and testosterone kick in usually during the early teen years.

All of us have varying mixtures of the two, and that which has been mentioned many times before, sometimes the hormones don't match the "equipment".

Feelings aren't orientation either. I may feel I should steal your money but I don't have to act on my feelings. I'm not an animal.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Church has accepted the theory of evolution and the age of the earth for centuries as it is not anti-science.

No, it hasn't accepted the theory of evolution.

Humani Generis explicitly declared that a major component of evolutionary theory is incompatible with the Catholic faith. It declared that any theory that suggests that there were more original "true humans" besides one male-female pair cannot be reconciled with the Church's teachings.

... and since those teachings are the underpinnings of Original Sin, which itself is the underpinning of the need for salvation, it's kinda a big deal.

 

[metis]

Feelings aren't orientation either. I may feel I should steal your money but I don't have to act on my feelings. I'm not an animal.

I'm not suggesting that you do, but maybe consider letting others have the same privilege without being harassed and/or being told they're acting immorally when all they are doing is acting on their biology in a consensual manner.

After all, if you believe God made us all, then if you are going to get angry, then maybe get angry with Him for His mismatch.

 

[wellwisher]

There was also wide agreement on the central role played in biological evolution by Darwinian natural selection, defined as a natural process that obligatorily brings out, from a collection of accidentally produced genetic variants, those most apt to variants, those most apt to survive and, especially, to produce progeny under prevailing conditions.

Your statement is fine, but the problem is homosexuals cannot reproduce using their current orientations of boy-boy or girl-girl. Therefore they are not part of evolution, due to his important genetic bottleneck. If the strongest deer of the herd was gay, he may have selective advantage at the mating Olympics and he may even win. However, his genes will not be passed forward for evolution. Natural selection will have to settle with the 2nd place heterosexual male who can pass his genes.

What this means to me is homosexuality is less about evolution and natural selection and more about a type of choice via social creationism. In this case, learned behavior can propagate over the centuries, even if it is detached from the genetics of reproduction based evolution. The ancient people sensed this was not the same thing. Science should know better.

When we breed animals, such as dogs, we; humans, select the traits that humans will like, which may not be the same as those chosen by natural selection. Very few breeds can survive in the wild since they were not selected for that by nature. This is manmade selection; manmade choices. Those who lead these latest fads in dogs may call these manmade choices, the new state of the art, and they will reward this in animal shows. But that is all subjective choice and everyone who goes along will need to be conditioned to accept it, since it did not appear from natural selection.

We need to call things for what they are, so the young people can make better choices, which they can accept full responsibility for. Now, there is no need to accept responsibility, if your choice is mischaracterized by mercenary science and left wing politics.

Again, if one wishes this choice, it is fine by me, but do not expect to me to lie for your ego, out of the fear of the political consequences. Accept responsibility and live and let live. Accept that your departure from evolution is based on a form of social creationism.

 

[pearl]

Humani Generis explicitly declared that a major component of evolutionary theory is incompatible with the Catholic faith. It declared that any theory that suggests that there were more original "true humans" besides one male-female pair cannot be reconciled with the Church's teachings.

It is up to the Church to interpret its own documents.
In the 1950 encyclical Humani Generis, "On Human Origins," Pope Pius XII allows us, by way of concession, to believe in the possibility that the human body could have evolved from preexisting biological material, so long as we adhere to the immediate creation of the soul by God in our first parents.
that the body could be the product of evolution but the soul could not.
There are differing understandings of Humani Generis depending one's position as to literalists, traditionalists, or open to the progress of science.

Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Pius XII, Teilhard and Ratzinger

And there is this interesting presentation of Ratzinger's theology on evolution
Solemn Enthronement of Evolution (unamsanctamcatholicam.com)

 

[pearl]

Again, if one wishes this choice,

Your insistence on choice instantly makes clear where you are coming from. There was/is no choice as to orientation. Only whether or not to act on it.

 

[pearl]

Children don't have sexual orientations... they learn from what they see.

Consider that homosexuals are born into and, in many cases, raised in a religious home. As children they grow up with heterosexual parents. That's the whole premise of 'Always Our Children'.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I'm not suggesting that you do, but maybe consider letting others have the same privilege without being harassed and/or being told they're acting immorally when all they are doing is acting on their biology in a consensual manner.

After all, if you believe God made us all, then if you are going to get angry, then maybe get angry with Him for His mismatch.

Who's angry?
And of course, it's immoral. As a believer, you should call sin what it is.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Consider that homosexuals are born into and, in many cases, raised in a religious home. As children they grow up with heterosexual parents. That's the whole premise of 'Always Our Children'.

So? They go off and find gay crap on the internet and experiment. It's not something they were born with, it's a choice they made.

 

[Left Coast]

It baffles me how many people still think being gay is a choice. When did you choose to be straight? It's silliness. It's just a natural inclination that arises in our consciousness from a young age. I had crushes on boys from the time I was in early elementary school. I had seen zero porn. No one told me I ought to be gay. Being gay was completely unacceptable in my family and church. The idea that I chose it is laughable.

Why are people still making this claim? Can we stop already?

 

[pearl]

So? They go off and find gay crap on the internet and experiment. It's not something they were born with, it's a choice they made.

So, I assume are a heterosexual in which case you should remember when it was, at least what year, that you chose to practice heterosexual sex. How old were you when you decided your sexual preference? Or did you just follow what came naturally for you? Why do you seem so threatened by the fact that sexual orientation is not a choice?

 

[Wildswanderer]

So, I assume are a heterosexual in which case you should remember when it was, at least what year, that you chose to practice heterosexual sex. How old were you when you decided your sexual preference? Or did you just follow what came naturally for you? Why do you seem so threatened by the fact that sexual orientation is not a choice?

None of your business what year it was.
Ever child is curious about their body and what it does. This can lead to unnatural desires if you allow it to. I truly believe everything we do or don't do is a choice in life. Too many people want to blame everything on their genes.

 

[pearl]

Ever child is curious about their body and what it does. This can lead to unnatural desires if you allow it to. I truly believe everything we do or don't do is a choice in life. Too many people want to blame everything on their genes.

In many cases, it may be appropriate and necessary that your child receive professional help, including counseling and spiritual direction. It is important, of course, that he or she receive such guidance willingly. Look for a therapist who has an appreciation of religious values and who understands the complex nature of sexuality. Such a person should be experienced at helping people discern the meaning of early sexual behaviors, sexual attractions, and sexual fantasies in ways that lead to more clarity and self-identity. In the course of this, however, it is essential for you to remain open to the possibility that your son or daughter is struggling to understand and accept a basic homosexual orientation.
Generally, homosexual orientation is experienced as a given, not as something freely chosen. By itself, therefore, a homosexual orientation cannot be considered sinful, for morality presumes the freedom to choose.

excerpt 'Always Our Children'

 

[metis]

And of course, it's immoral. As a believer, you should call sin what it is.

What you seemingly don't realize is that the scriptures are not unbiased as they also reflect cultural norms, thus objectivity was not and is not their m.o. Thus, we look at the Bible itself in a somewhat different way.

A general byproduct of the Golden Rule is to "do not harm", thus who is harmed in a gay relationship as long as it only involves consensual adults? Either way, who's to judge? You? Me? or the Boss?

 

[metis]

None of your business what year it was.

Then what "business" is it of yours to judge others as you have been doing? So, I would suggest that you take your own advice.

 

[Wildswanderer]

In many cases, it may be appropriate and necessary that your child receive professional help, including counseling and spiritual direction. It is important, of course, that he or she receive such guidance willingly. Look for a therapist who has an appreciation of religious values and who understands the complex nature of sexuality. Such a person should be experienced at helping people discern the meaning of early sexual behaviors, sexual attractions, and sexual fantasies in ways that lead to more clarity and self-identity. In the course of this, however, it is essential for you to remain open to the possibility that your son or daughter is struggling to understand and accept a basic homosexual orientation.
Generally, homosexual orientation is experienced as a given, not as something freely chosen. By itself, therefore, a homosexual orientation cannot be considered sinful, for morality presumes the freedom to choose.

excerpt 'Always Our Children'

We always choose.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What you seemingly don't realize is that the scriptures are not unbiased as they also reflect cultural norms, thus objectivity was not and is not their m.o. Thus, we look at the Bible itself in a somewhat different way.

A general byproduct of the Golden Rule is to "do not harm", thus who is harmed in a gay relationship as long as it only involves consensual adults? Either way, who's to judge? You? Me? or the Boss?

God said it's sin. The end.