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Pope Francis says, Outside the Church There is No Salvation

Discussion in 'Catholic DIR' started by Steven Merten, Jan 18, 2020.

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  1. Catholics can oppose the Church on this Catholic Doctrine and still be a good Catholics

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  2. This Catholic Church Doctrine should be destroyed

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. This Church Doctrine is the Truth from Jesus through the Holy Spirit

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  4. Pope Francis is right in standing with all the Popes of the past on this Catholic Doctrine

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Steven Merten

    Steven Merten Member

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    Pope Francis is under attack for saying that outside the Church there is no salvation:
    it’s a “poke in the eye” says one Presbyterian.
    Here is why he’s wrong

    Here we go again: a new Pope says something that all his predecessors have said because it is what the Church has always taught, and some Protestant accuses him of personally adopting (I quote a Prebyterian minister writing in the National Catholic Reporter (aka fishwrap) a “dicey position”, as though he had a choice in the matter. According to the Reverend Bill Tammeus, when Pope Francis recently quoted Pope Paul saying “It’s an absurd dichotomy to think one can live with Jesus, but without the Church, to follow Jesus outside the Church, to love Jesus and not the Church”, he is “intentionally (my emphasis) offering a poke in the eye to people outside [his] faith tradition”.

    Pope Francis is under attack for saying that outside the Church there is no salvation: it’s a “poke in the eye” says one Presbyterian. Here is why he’s wrong | Catholic Herald


    Catechism of the Catholic Church 846
    (No Salvation Outside the Church)

    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

    CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 846


    Papal Declarations on “No Salvation Outside the Church”

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.

    “Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'”

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.”

    Papal Declarations on "No Salvation Outside the Church" - Scripture Catholic


    There Is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

    To state “there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church” does not mean that no Protestant, Jew, Muslim, etc., could be saved, but if he were saved, it would be by virtue of the Catholic Church and not his erring sect or religion. If he were saved, it would be because he was, by grace (or in the case of Protestants, by baptism), a member of the Catholic Church. Everyone who is in heaven is a member of the Church Triumphant and, ipso facto, a Catholic.

    I do not think many people will deny that there are good and holy people in other religions. But this does not lessen the importance of the fact that all the graces in the world enter the world through the Catholic Church.

    There Is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church - OnePeterFive
     
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  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Notice the sites you have chosen. What you fail to recognize is that the Church Councils are of EQUAL authority. Vatican II teaches with the SAME authority as did the Council of Trent etc. It is the Church that has the final say as to the interpretation of its own documents. And it has spoken.

    Do you not remember a certain Father Leonard Feeney, excommunicated by the pope for teaching his corrupted version of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus? - Protestants were going to Hell.
     
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  3. Steven Merten

    Steven Merten Member

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    Hello pcarl,
    I have double checked the scborromeo.org link on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 846, in Vatican archives is identical. It is a good source on Catholic Catechism. Sources are good.

    Well, unless you are suggesting to us that all Catholic Doctrines over the past 2000 years were abolished in Vatican II?

    Catechism of the Catholic Church
    (quoted from Vatican Archives)​

    845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


    CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3


    Catechism of the Catholic Church
    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

    CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 846
     
    #3 Steven Merten, Jan 18, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I voted for curtain #1.

    Secondly, the Church, with especially the last few popes, has very much moderated its position on this, thus being far less judgmental. And Pope Francis has even taken this to another level.

    Salvation may be possible outside the Church if one does not have the proper understanding of the Church's position, according to the CCC. For just one example, no longer does the Church categorically condemn Jews as it once did, even holding joint services (not mass though) together. Pope Francis was just in Yemen, working with imams on joint resolutions, especially praying for peace.

    Vatican II "opened the windows", as Pope John XXIII stated, but also the doors of the Church, whereas we are now quite involved in ecumenical collaboration and even joint services together. I personally have been involved in ecumenical activities here in the Detroit area, as has our archbishop.

    However, not all Catholics, especially "old school" ones, like this. My one neighbor hated the changes that Vatican II brought in, but she stuck with the Church nevertheless. Many conservative bishops strongly dislike what Pope Francis is saying and doing at times, whereas I think he's a breath of fresh air that was badly needed.

    I strongly feel we should leave the judging to God.

    Anyhow, have a Most Blessed Lord's Day as I'm outta here until at least Monday.
     
  5. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    The mind... and I have no clue why Angel's have wings unless it was to fight flying snakes as they evolve.
     
  6. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    You must understand the CCC for what it is, basically a commentary on the Creed. Your are playing the CCC against the teachings of the
    Magisterium and the Pope.
    8. This statement of the Decree Unitatis Redintegratio is to be read in the context of the complete teaching of the Second Vatican Council. The Council expresses the Church's decision to take up the ecumenical task of working for Christian unity and to propose it with conviction and vigour: "This sacred Synod exhorts all the Catholic faithful to recognize the signs of the times and to participate actively in the work of ecumenism".7
    2. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. They cannot fail to meet this challenge. Indeed, how could they refuse to do everything possible, with God's help, to break down the walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwart the proclamation of the Gospel of salvation in the Cross of Jesus, the one Redeemer of man, of every individual?
    "It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".12
    Ut Unum Sint (25 May 1995) | John Paul II
     
    #6 pcarl, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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  7. Steven Merten

    Steven Merten Member

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    Matthew 10:12

    As you enter a house, wish it peace. If the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; if not, let your peace return to you. Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words—go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.


    Hello pcarl,

    I am always amazed at Matthew 10:12. Jesus tells us that on Judgement Day, He will go harder on those who reject His Apostles than He will on those of Sodom and Gomorrah. Wow! Jesus seems to be telling us that, on Judgement Day, some of the people destroyed in Sodom and Gomorrah, will enter into heaven through the blood of Jesus. Those who reject Jesus’ Apostles and their Successors, Jesus tells us that He will go harder on them, on the Day of Judgement, than on those of Sodom and Gomorrah. Wow! Wow! Wow!

    I think maybe you are not understanding the Catholic Doctrine of “No Salvation Outside the Church”. Do you agree with OnePeterFive, quoted below, on how to understand Catholic Doctrine on “No Salvation outside the Catholic Church”?


    There Is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

    To state “there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church” does not mean that no Protestant, Jew, Muslim, etc., could be saved, but if he were saved, it would be by virtue of the Catholic Church and not his erring sect or religion. If he were saved, it would be because he was, by grace (or in the case of Protestants, by baptism), a member of the Catholic Church. Everyone who is in heaven is a member of the Church Triumphant and, ipso facto, a Catholic.

    I do not think many people will deny that there are good and holy people in other religions. But this does not lessen the importance of the fact that all the graces in the world enter the world through the Catholic Church.


    There Is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church - OnePeterFive
     
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  8. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Are you inferring that the Church misinterprets its own Scriptures?
    There is no salvation outside of Christ. The teaching of the Church affirms the salvation of the Jews within their irrevocable, absolute, eternal covenant with God.
     
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  9. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    I stated as much
     
  10. Steven Merten

    Steven Merten Member

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    Hello pcarl,
    We are talking about the Catholic Doctrine of "Outside the Church there is no salvation". It is you who seems to be "inferring", that this Catholic Doctrine, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is wrong, not me.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church
    (quoted from Vatican Archives)
    845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

    CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

    There Is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

    To state “there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church” does not mean that no Protestant, Jew, Muslim, etc., could be saved, but if he were saved, it would be by virtue of the Catholic Church and not his erring sect or religion. If he were saved, it would be because he was, by grace
    (or in the case of Protestants, by baptism), a member of the Catholic Church. Everyone who is in heaven is a member of the Church Triumphant and, ipso facto, a Catholic.

    I do not think many people will deny that there are good and holy people in other religions. But this does not lessen the importance of the fact that all the graces in the world enter the world through the Catholic Church.

    There Is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church - OnePeterFive
     
    #10 Steven Merten, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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