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Featured Pope Francis condemns exploitative bosses as 'bloodsuckers' who make workers 'slaves'

Discussion in 'Religious News' started by Vouthon, May 20, 2016.

  1. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    How do you know I'd get this message, & not the several others which many Xians glean?
     
  2. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    I am assuming that you will be sincere to yourself.
     
  3. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Good assumption.
    But you do know that I'm somewhat fringe in values & interpretation of observations.
    There's no telling what I might infer from reading the Bible.
    (Fortunately, I've no interest in or time for such a monumental task.)
     
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  4. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    If you have no time and no interest in examining the teachings of Christ, don't you think that you should be more cautious before criticizing them? You don't need to answer me. Just think about it.
     
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  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Thank you for advising me to think.
    My criticism is quite limited, & based upon what various actual Xians tell me about it.
    If they all read the same book, but come away with vastly different interpretations, this tells me that it's imprecise.
    I needn't read it to see this.
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The Pope is not treated like God, but he is considered to be a successor of the apostles, which is covered in Acts if you read and think it through.

    "Holy Father" is not blasphemy" as I don't think you appear to know the origin and actual meaning of the word "holy" in this context. "Holy" means "special" and by itself it doesn't mean nor imply being without sin.

    You apparently have been very thoroughly brainwashed, going by the many errors that you have been making in numerous posts. Also, it appears that somehow you think you can speak for Jesus and God in stating your opinions as if they were facts.

    As I told you before, I am neither Catholic nor Christian, but what you have been writing is nothing short of a myopic religious bigotry. I post this not to be mean but to instead to encourage you to do some studying on this matter, or at least maybe you can at least ask some questions of those that have done enough studying on this, before posting the judgmental bigotry that you have been posting.
     
    #46 metis, May 29, 2016
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
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  7. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    But what about his condemnation of the "globalization of indifference" by means of trickle-down economics and an economy founded upon the exclusion of the interests of all save those of the monied elites of global finance?


    http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...ii-gaudium.html#No_to_an_economy_of_exclusion


    53. Just as the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say “thou shalt not” to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills. How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.

    Human beings are themselves considered consumer goods to be used and then discarded. We have created a “throw away” culture which is now spreading. It is no longer simply about exploitation and oppression, but something new. Exclusion ultimately has to do with what it means to be a part of the society in which we live; those excluded are no longer society’s underside or its fringes or its disenfranchised – they are no longer even a part of it. The excluded are not the “exploited” but the outcast, the “leftovers”.

    54. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain, and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase. In the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.

    Is that comonsense and 'banal'? No siree.

    This is heavy stuff and quite a different beast from the OP.

    Many right-wing ideologues swear by the idea that the market and competition will inevitably lead to benefits "trickling down" to everyone and not just the top corporate CEOs. It's Reagonomics - mainstream economic thought in the U.S. for many years.

    The Pope condemns here a very specific thing - a pervasive free-market ideology that has led to a Great Recession and untold human suffering in the past decade. He ain't speaking in placid generalities.

    What you've got to bear in mind is that these "common sense" speeches by the pope as in the OP are pastoral homilies designed to appeal to the heart of his parishioners.

    In the above quote, however, he is speaking not "pastorally" but prophetically in a doctrinal document about the social situation in today's globalized world.

    Pope Francis the pastor and Pope Francis the visionary social prophet are two different sides of the one man.
     
    #47 Vouthon, May 29, 2016
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
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  8. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    I think your under-selling yourself and your talents here Revoltingest...

    Who knows, you might read the Bible and come up with the bright, unifying "interpretation" we've all been waiting for that will finally end two millennias worth of near-constant doctrinal bickering and backbiting among "Xians" over the scriptures...

    I'm rooting for you to be the one to do the impossible :p
     
    #48 Vouthon, May 29, 2016
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  9. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    To be fair, it probably was quite radical when Pope Leo XIII said it in 1891, in the context of laissez-faire Victorian economics:


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerum_novarum


    Rerum novarum (from its first two words, Latin for "of revolutionary change"[n 1]), or Rights and Duties of Capital and Labor, is an encyclical issued by Pope Leo XIII on 15 May 1891. It was an open letter, passed to all Catholic bishops, that addressed the condition of the working classes.

    It discussed the relationships and mutual duties between labor and capital, as well as government and its citizens. Of primary concern was the need for some amelioration of "The misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class."...

    Rerum novarum is remarkable for its vivid depiction of the plight of the nineteenth-century urban poor and for its condemnation of unrestricted capitalism
    ...

    Rerum novarum also recognized that the poor have a special status in consideration of social issues: the modern Catholic principle of the "preferential option for the poor" and the notion that God is on the side of the poor were expressed in this document.[11][12]

    ;)
     
  10. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    While I understand and respect the fact that you cannot, seemingly and based upon my collective reading of your posts over the last three years, comprehend how anybody could possibly even for a single minute view Catholicism as anything other than a huge, antiquated, corrupt albatross and prison-camp of a religion characterized by nothing but paedophilia, stupidity, oppression, murder, superstition and inhumane practices (have I missed anything? ;) )...

    You might want to consider that some of us actually do interpret our religion as a "guardian of social justice" and are sincere in believing so, as well as passionate about abiding by its social teaching and also consider that most of us who believe this are actually on the whole thoroughly decent, law-abiding and sane people who aren't out to burn witches, carry out inquisition trials on suspected heretics in our neighbourhoods, torture non-believers, mistreat children or oppose scientific advancements in favour of superstitious nonsense...

    But rather, we are just getting on with living our lives (like everyone else) according to the principles we hold dear and genuinely want to make life better for the poor, sick and vulnerable in society and contribute to the well-being of the human race in general ....

    And that for us, Pope Francis represents our religion as we practise it and in terms of the priorities that we share and the worldview that we regard as meaningful...

    And that Catholicism is way more complicated than the ghastly caricature you sometimes portray it as - with both positive and negative aspects historically, rather than a uniquely evil and ludicrous past devoid of any high points which if true would have made it impossible for the Church to spawn enduring civilizations and cultures replete with philosophy, works of art, world renowned literature, architecture and so on...

    If Catholicism is "just" as you portray it, then it couldn't have held together a knocking shop for a night let alone 2,000 years worth of human civilization....

    I have a string of UNESCO World Heritage sites for you to go and see if you would like an educational holiday.
     
    #50 Vouthon, May 29, 2016
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  11. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    <snicker>
    Hah!
    <guffaw>
    I don't know if it's even possible to under-sell my ability to read something, & come away with something people would like.
     
  12. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    Hey, didnt I tell you to stop being bashful? :facepalm::tonguewink:.

    Stranger things have happened I'm sure....
     
  13. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Neither bashful nor modest, I heed Dirty Harry's admonition.....
    "A man's got to know his limitations."
     
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  14. Deidre

    Deidre Boo!

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    Yea, a ''market'' that has made it possible for his Church to become very wealthy. When he decides to tackle the capitalist problems that exist within the walls of the Vatican, then maybe I'd think his message is more than just talk. Talk for the sake of talk. Making speeches isn't doing anything, really. Anyone can sit from an ivory tower and ''condemn'' others's behaviors, how about come down out of the tower and do something to help change things. There is greed and avarice all over the world, but the irony is that it exists in the RCC on a pervasive level. The Pope isn't relevant, the RCC is sinking in its numbers in the west, which is why he is on a PR campaign trail, which while he seems like a well intentioned man, it's just all words in order for the general public to perceive the RCC as something different. The RCC isn't changing, it still abhors homosexuality, it still is sexist, it's still a wealthy institution, so he should look at those things, because those are things he CAN fix.

    This isn't to say his message is not a valid one, for it is valid. But, it's a bit hypocritical to listen to someone condemn others' behaviors, when he has clergy in his own 'house' who walk to that same beat.
     
  15. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    Weirdly enough, that's the same point the Pope has been banging on about:


    A pastor cannot feel that it is enough simply to apply moral laws to those living in 'irregular' situations, as if they were stones to throw at people's lives. This would bespeak the closed heart of one used to hiding behind the Church’s teachings, sitting on the chair of Moses and judging at times with superiority and superficiality difficult cases and wounded families. Hence it can no longer simply be said that all those in any 'irregular' situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace


    Perhaps you have more in common with him than you think.

    The Pope lives in a guesthouse. He doesn't lead a luxurious life.

    For a person who isn't relevant he sure makes the headline news a lot...think of any other religious leaders who crop up even half as much?

    And he's been rated more popular than all other world leaders:


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-35888289

    Pope more popular than world leaders - poll

    Pope Francis is more popular than any political world leader, an opinion poll has suggested.

    The poll by WIN/Gallup International indicates that Roman Catholics and Jews have the most favourable opinion of the Pope.

    More than half of the world's protestants and even the majority of atheists and agnostics view him favourably.

    About 1,000 people were questioned in 64 countries.

    BBC religious affairs correspondent Caroline Wyatt says that, three years into his papacy, Francis has enjoyed enormous goodwill and won the hearts and minds not just of Roman Catholics but also of people from other religions and the non-religious.​


    And for an allegedly irrelevant religion, it sure fires the passions of folk on RF and on the internet in general.

    In some countries, not in others. Outside the West its growing in Africa and China. A very mixed bag.

    Francis has not changed his social message a bit since he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires and worked with the poor in the favella slums, and back then not before the eye of the world's media.
     
    #55 Vouthon, May 29, 2016
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  16. Deidre

    Deidre Boo!

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    I grew up in the Catholic faith, and having gone away from it, I can see more objectively now, the message that it preaches, and it's often a false set of teachings, not of the Bible. The Pope is not better than anyone else, yet the Church elevates him and it's clergy as just that. He is a mere mortal, and has no right to tell anyone how to live. If more people read the Bible, actually read it and prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance, a Pope with his spin on things, wouldn't be needed to lead the 'sheep.' People don't need a church to guide it, all they need is a willing heart to follow Jesus. (speaking of Christians) But, the RCC has ''sold'' this idea for centuries that without it, people can't find their way. People can find their way to Jesus, if they would stay focused on the path that leads to Him. People are there for us to learn from, sure. But, I remember my Catholic days, and how the Pope was quite revered, and you always felt like he was elevated above you. He's been referred to as 'the holiest man on earth,' by many Catholics. No one knows the contents of someone's heart except God, and the person. I think there is a lot of beauty in the traditions and culture of the Church, but it's just not a church that I could see following, again. I hope it doesn't lead you astray.
     
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  17. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    He actually doesn't claim to be.

    Then the mere mortals, like the prophets Isaiah and Micah, who the wrote books of the Bible have no right to communicate ethical injunctions either. St. Paul was a mere mortal. Let's just ignore what he has to say. Heck the Gospel writers were all mere mortals so why should we trust their accounts as well? Let's just chuck away the Bible.

    How is that position substantively different? Either way your still consulting other people to help form your conscience. Only difference is, the people who wrote the Sacred Scriptures have died and passed from this life, whereas the Pope is actually alive and on earth.

    Then why did Jesus call apostles at all?

    Why do the Pastoral Epistles in the New Testament refer to a hierarchy involving presbyters and bishops?

    Why didn't both of them just let people do it for themselves?

    And yet one of his main titles is....

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servant_of_the_servants_of_God

    Servant of the servants of God (Latin: servus servorum Dei)[1] is one of the titles of the pope and is used at the beginning of papal bulls


    I completely agree.

    I'm doing ok, I assure you my friend ;)

    I respect everything you've said and commend you for following your conscience (ie. being open about why Catholicism didn't work for you).

    Thank you for letting me know your personal story.
     
    #57 Vouthon, May 29, 2016
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  18. Deidre

    Deidre Boo!

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    We are all disciples of Jesus, not just the 'elected clergy.' The apostolic succession that leads to this current Pope, is something that I used to believe in, but I don't anymore. When Jesus chose His Apostles, yes, He was building His church. But, the church is within us, and we are to share that good news with others, it's not a coveted message that only a select few hold onto. I appreciate you letting me share my thoughts. It's not really an anger I have over the RCC, although it might seem that way. It's more that there are just tenets of Catholicism that I feel border on false teachings, and it bugs me that there are people who are still worried about their salvation because of what a man-made institution is telling them. That's all. And that's sad, and unfortunate. Anyway, thank you, too. :sunflower:
     
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  19. Deidre

    Deidre Boo!

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    I didn't realize you made this thread, lol My apologies for being an inappropriate ''guest.'' :blush:
    So, how is the Church getting on, with regards to where you reside? I mainly focus on the west, since I live in the west.
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    First of all, it needs to be mentioned that the church isn't against capitalism per se, what the church has long objected to and continues to do so is having a type of social Darwinism with no or an inadequate safety net.

    Secondly, church and synagogue attendance in Europe has decreased in general, and as one Lutheran writer said, the RCC is hurting while the Protestant church is pretty much dead. Average weekly attendance in northern Europe is below 10%.
     
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