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Featured Pope Francis and LGBT people

Discussion in 'Religious News' started by sun rise, May 9, 2022.

  1. Five Solas

    Five Solas Member

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    Hi,

    You will only ever get the biblical view from me.

    The Bible says sin became part of human nature because of Adam and Eve's sin. You must have heard of original sin. Sin is in our 'genes'.

    We also believe we cannot tell God what or what not to do because He is sovereign. He has the right and the freedom to do whatsoever He pleases, whenever He pleases, however, He pleases, in respect to whomever He pleases.

    Do I understand it? No. Do I struggle with that? For sure.

    In theology, it is called the theodicy problem - why a perfectly good, almighty, and all-knowing God permits evil.

    I don't know the answers but that is how it is. I look forward to the new heaven and new earth where all pain and suffering will be no more. For now, we're not in heaven yet.
     
  2. Five Solas

    Five Solas Member

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    Good...
     
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  3. Five Solas

    Five Solas Member

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    God is a male ... but not a man... (I think - never seen Him)
     
  4. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    In your belief system. :)
     
  5. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I know atheists who do a better job of living God's message in spite of not believing in God compared to those who say they believe but do not try seriously to live the message.
     
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  6. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    Quoted for truth. Well said, sun rise.

    "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians: who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.” - Brennan Manning
     
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  7. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    What's it to you what @Shadow Wolf prays for? It's none of your business.
     
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  8. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    Most Christians cherry-pick the "sins" they like to call out, and it's usually something that they're not guilty of doing themselves.
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    I don't pray. And I did put my signature there.
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Oh really? Well, let me tell ya that I taught both Christian and Jewish theology for decades now, so what you are showing me is that you jump to conclusions without evidence.

    I never stated nor implied that one couldn't do that, so somehow you've managed to miss the point.

    Your insults are getting really old, and if this is what you think is moral under basic Judeo-Christian standards then let me suggest you do some serious introspection.

    "Judge ye not..."-- Jesus
     
  11. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Or in some cases something they are such as those who attack gays while trying to be in the closet about their actions.
     
  12. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    And it's even Biblical:

    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
     
  13. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    No one was saying that it was - so I don't understand why you would try to make this point.

    All I have done is accurately shared Pope Francis' stance on homosexuality - which is a stance I share - and it is a stance that separates the same-sex attraction from the homosexual behavior.

    You are free to believe whatever you want to believe - no one said otherwise - but you can't try to claim that Pope Francis made claims that he did not.

    I honestly don't understand why you would even make this statement when I wasn't making any claims about this at all.

    It was the same with your comment about scriptural inerrancy - I never made a claim about it - so it was weird when you brought that up.

    Is this an attempt at misdirection?
    No actually - it is an absolute fact that a person does not need to believe that the Bible - or any other book of scripture - is inerrant to learn that homosexual behavior is sinful.

    Many people - myself included - do not believe that the Bible is inerrant and yet we have still come to learn that homosexual behavior is sinful.

    It is a fact that people can have these two opinions - they are not mutually exclusive.

    Whether or not you agree with those opinions in beside the point.
     
  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    Yes, you do need something like the Bible telling you it's bad, and you need the Bible to learn about this "sin" thingy. Such as, in many, many religions your misdeeds do not offend the gods: Just those in life you offended. There is no "sin" as Abrahamics teach it.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    If you check back at my posts, I didn't say he did. What I did say in short is that his approach with those who are gay is more understanding and less judgmental than what one often sees with the more conservative bishops. And because of this, and sometimes so other factors, they are not too pleased with PF.

    The Church does indeed condemn homosexual behavior, but what I was saying is that the tone with PF is not judgmental towards those who are gay. The idea that a gay person can't go to heaven makes about as much "sense" as if one said that if one masturbates or have sexualized thoughts they can't go to heaven.

    We know through research on humans, apes, and monkeys that homosexual impulses are active with a minority of those within these species and that this largely relates to genes and hormones. Thus, if we believe God made all, then why would those who have that drive based on genetics be considered to be sinful?

    And we have to remember that thousands of years ago people would have 0 understanding about "genes" and "hormones". So, I would suggest that "God doesn't make junk" and that I'm not in the position to tell who may or may not go to heaven, nor should I even try.
     
  16. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    And in much lower lifeforms as well including insects List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia
     
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  17. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    Yet - he still claims that homosexual behavior is sinful - so how is he less judgmental?

    All your talk about "genes" dictating our behavior is a ploy to absolve everyone of responsibility for their actions - therefore sin - which Pope Francis would definitely disagree with.
    I guess I don't see it.
    That's completely false.

    According to the Catholic understanding of the scriptures - a person who considers themselves "gay" - meaning a person who has embraced their same-sex attraction - is a person who has no desire to repent of the sin of homosexual behavior.

    You may believe that a person who has a same-sex attraction is "gay" - but that is not how Pope Francis or even the Bible would see it.

    A person can have a same-sex attraction - act based on that attraction and engage in homosexual behavior - yet later repent of that behavior and change their ways.

    This is a person who is doing as the Lord directs and I cannot think of a reason - based on the limited example - for why he/she should be denied anything.

    A person who consistently abuses themselves (masturbation) without ever repenting is a person who will be denied things in the life hereafter.

    A person who consistently indulges in lustful thoughts without ever repenting is a person who will be denied things in the life hereafter.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ is predicated on repentance - not perfection - so as long as people are doing their best to repent and change their ways - they will be well.

    So - if the individual makes no effort to repent - by claiming to be "gay" and living as such - they will be denied many blessings.
    Paul referred to this and other weaknesses as "thorns in the flesh".

    If the goal of this mortal life is to overcome the obstacles given us - we cannot blame the obstacles for getting in our way - because that is the whole reason for us being here.
    Because we are not mindless automatons following our genetic programming and the Lord has promised us that no temptation given us will be too great for us to resist.

    So - I may have no genetic "thorn" that gives me an attraction to the same-sex - but don't worry - I got all kinds of other "thorns" that keep prodding me toward other sins.

    Same-sex attraction isn't a "special" weakness in our flesh and deciding to be "gay" isn't any different than someone deciding to never repent of other sins.
    It wouldn't matter even if they did. It would have changed nothing.
    I agree that the Catholic view on Heaven and Hell is not completely correct - but their views on sin are pretty spot on.

    God has given all of us weaknesses in our flesh - these "thorns" - with the intention that they keep us humble - because having them will drive us to seek Him out and come to rely on His strength.

    It is definitely not "junk" - but it isn't an excuse to commit sin either.
     
  18. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Another way of looking at the issue through the lens of Romans 14:4:

    Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

    You've told us that LGBTQ "servants of God", if they don't repent to your satisfaction, have "fallen" in the eyes of God. It seems to me that you need to choose between two options:

    - The Bible is wrong. God will leave the people whose actions you disapprove of to "fall." God is either unwilling or unable to make them "stand."

    - You are wrong. LGBTQ people are "standing" in the eyes of God even if you can't understand how this could be so.

    You don't need to say which option you choose; this is just something for you to think about.
     
  19. Veyl

    Veyl Member

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    In regards to the matter of genetics, I actually get the feeling that the question is less of biology and rather that of innatism. For all we know, orientation could be as uncreated as the rest of the mind. I disagree with your assumption that homosexuality is somehow inherently sinful, or at least any moreso than living a worldly life in general is. If anything society should simply be desexualized all around, as there isn't really any meaningful difference between heterosexuality, homosexuality, and fetishes. Giving preferential treatment to any given one is simply a deluded part of the mind. It's actually rather surprising how much leeway we give heterosexuals, such as in sexual education and romance in children's media.
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I did not say nor imply "dictating".

    The same exact thing could be said about masturbation, gambling, cursing, etc.

    Paul wouldn't have a clue what hormones are and how they can influence the sex drive.

    So, God tempts us to sin??? I guess we see God in a VERY different way.

    Finally, maybe let God do the judging, OK? You can believe and post what you want, but please don't stoop to the low of judging others. To put it another way: "hate the sin, not the sinner".
     
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