Pope Francis and LGBT people

[sun rise]

This is why I like Pope Francis. I don't have to agree with all of his theology to appreciate his attitude in some key areas:

Pope to LGBT Catholics: 'God is Father who does not disown any of his children' - Vatican News

Outreach: What would you say is the most important thing for LGBT people to know about God?


Pope Francis: God is Father and he does not disown any of his children. And “the style” of God is “closeness, mercy and tenderness.” Along this path you will find God.
...
Outreach: What do you say to an LGBT Catholic who has experienced rejection from the Church?


Pope Francis: I would have them recognize it not as “the rejection of the church,” but instead of “people in the church.” The church is a mother and calls together all her children. Take for example the parable of those invited to the feast: “the just, the sinners, the rich and the poor, etc.” [Matthew 22:1-15; Luke 14:15-24]. A “selective” church, one of “pure blood,” is not Holy Mother Church, but rather a sect.

 

[Nakosis]

This is why I like Pope Francis. I don't have to agree with all of his theology to appreciate his attitude in some key areas:

Pope to LGBT Catholics: 'God is Father who does not disown any of his children' - Vatican News

Outreach: What would you say is the most important thing for LGBT people to know about God?


Pope Francis: God is Father and he does not disown any of his children. And “the style” of God is “closeness, mercy and tenderness.” Along this path you will find God.
...
Outreach: What do you say to an LGBT Catholic who has experienced rejection from the Church?


Pope Francis: I would have them recognize it not as “the rejection of the church,” but instead of “people in the church.” The church is a mother and calls together all her children. Take for example the parable of those invited to the feast: “the just, the sinners, the rich and the poor, etc.” [Matthew 22:1-15; Luke 14:15-24]. A “selective” church, one of “pure blood,” is not Holy Mother Church, but rather a sect.

So why are the "people of the church" rejecting anyone?
Isn't this a reflection of what the church has taught them?

 

[KW]

This is why I like Pope Francis. I don't have to agree with all of his theology to appreciate his attitude in some key areas:

Pope to LGBT Catholics: 'God is Father who does not disown any of his children' - Vatican News

Outreach: What would you say is the most important thing for LGBT people to know about God?


Pope Francis: God is Father and he does not disown any of his children. And “the style” of God is “closeness, mercy and tenderness.” Along this path you will find God.
...
Outreach: What do you say to an LGBT Catholic who has experienced rejection from the Church?


Pope Francis: I would have them recognize it not as “the rejection of the church,” but instead of “people in the church.” The church is a mother and calls together all her children. Take for example the parable of those invited to the feast: “the just, the sinners, the rich and the poor, etc.” [Matthew 22:1-15; Luke 14:15-24]. A “selective” church, one of “pure blood,” is not Holy Mother Church, but rather a sect.

This is all true, but he is not condoning homosexual behavior.

 

[Viker]

This is all true, but he is not condoning homosexual behavior.

He basically is condoning. Homosexual behavior isn't a sin. It's a part of a person. No homosexual behavior means no homosexual which means that person is incomplete.

 

[sun rise]

So why are the "people of the church" rejecting anyone?
Isn't this a reflection of what the church has taught them?

Because Pope Francis is an outlier who really wants to have the Church embody the best principles of the Bible. This is shown by those who are fighting against what he's trying to do.

 

[sun rise]

This is all true, but he is not condoning homosexual behavior.

Is he doing everything we might wish? No. Is he changing basic teachings? No. But what he's doing is accepting those who fundamentalists reject.

What he is doing is radical for the Catholic Church which is to try to live out the law of love and to not judge who is worthy or not worthy.

 

[KW]

He basically is condoning. Homosexual behavior isn't a sin. It's a part of a person. No homosexual behavior means no homosexual which means that person is incomplete.

According to the Church and Pope Francis homosexual acts are sinful.

Many people have sinful desires. Resisting those desires doesn't make a person incomplete. If I desire someone other than wife I must resist that desire.

Pope Francis and all Catholics want to be charitable to people that have homosexual desires and help them live a moral life. That's not the same as condoning homosexual acts.

 

[KW]

Is he doing everything we might wish? No. Is he changing basic teachings? No. But what he's doing is accepting those who fundamentalists reject.

What he is doing is radical for the Catholic Church which is to try to live out the law of love and to not judge who is worthy or not worthy.

Not really. The Church has consistently welcomed all sinners and we encourage them in love to stop sinning and follow Christ.

 

[Viker]

According to the Church and Pope Francis homosexual acts are sinful.

Many people have sinful desires. Resisting those desires doesn't make a person incomplete. If I desire someone other than wife I must resist that desire.

Pope Francis and all Catholics want to be charitable to people that have homosexual desires and help them live a moral life. That's not the same as condoning homosexual acts.

So, homosexuals can join, only if they remain single and celibate? Crazy. Why would anyone torture themselves like that?

 

[paradox]

This is why I like Pope Francis. I don't have to agree with all of his theology to appreciate his attitude in some key areas:

Pope to LGBT Catholics: 'God is Father who does not disown any of his children' - Vatican News

Outreach: What would you say is the most important thing for LGBT people to know about God?


Pope Francis: God is Father and he does not disown any of his children. And “the style” of God is “closeness, mercy and tenderness.” Along this path you will find God.
...
Outreach: What do you say to an LGBT Catholic who has experienced rejection from the Church?


Pope Francis: I would have them recognize it not as “the rejection of the church,” but instead of “people in the church.” The church is a mother and calls together all her children. Take for example the parable of those invited to the feast: “the just, the sinners, the rich and the poor, etc.” [Matthew 22:1-15; Luke 14:15-24]. A “selective” church, one of “pure blood,” is not Holy Mother Church, but rather a sect.

Problem is not what the pope says, problem is when his words are taken and reconstructed as if he approves LGBT.

Here is an example:

Pope Francis has said that he thinks same-sex couples should be allowed to have "civil unions".

Which in fact he didn't say literally.
Pope Francis indicates support for same-sex civil unions - BBC News

So much about "pope news"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Pope Francis: God is Father and he does not disown any of his children. And “the style” of God is “closeness, mercy and tenderness.” Along this path you will find God.

And I don't get where he gets this idea from, because the Bible is saturated with passages that condemn LGBT people. "Detestable," "abomination," "perversion," "they shall not inherit the Kingdom." That is what the Bible has to say about LGBT people. And not only that, it says to kill them.
And Jehovah doesn't disown his children? "I never knew you, depart from me" is what Jesus has already said he's going to be saying to many of those who follow him (Matthew 7:23). He also warned against lessening and changing the laws and said those who do will be counted among the least in the Kingdom.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

This is all true, but he is not condoning homosexual behavior.

Then why does it exist?

 

[KW]

So, homosexuals can join, only if they remain single and celibate? Crazy. Why would anyone torture themselves like that?

Because they want to follow Gods will.

 

[KW]

Then why does it exist?

Why does pedophilia exist? Adultery? etc.

We all have sinful desires. It is not unique in that regard.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Why does pedophilia exist? Adultery? etc.

We all have sinful desires. It is not unique in that regard.

But what does this say about God? Shouldn't an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God be able to do more to alleviate the suffering of Its creation?

Note: There is a vast difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. One has the capability of consent, the other does not.

 

[KW]

But what does this say about God? Shouldn't an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God be able to do more to alleviate the suffering of Its creation?

Note: There is a vast difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. One has the capability of consent, the other does not.

i agree that there is a difference, but both are sins. God gives us free will. We may desire things that are not good for us or others, but we don’t have to choose them.

Our souls are eternal. The short time we spend in earth is nothing compared to eternity. Gods plan goes beyond this life. Justice will be achieved.

Love is only possible if we have free will and that means we will sometimes choose the wrong path.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

But what does this say about God? Shouldn't an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God be able to do more to alleviate the suffering of Its creation?

If the Bible is accurate, then the Christian God is a sadistic and psychopathic SOB who deliberately inflicts pain and suffering on humans. Forget about all the misleading stories about the Christian God being a loving, merciful heavenly father, because we're talking about a God who deliberately creates evil, disasters, and calamities (Isaiah 45:7), and he creates some people to be wicked: "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4). Is that a loving god?

If the Bible is accurate, then the Christian God cruelly manipulates his creation for his own sick pleasure. Humanity and every other created being in this world are nothing more than his playthings. He obviously takes pleasure in creating total pandemonium in the world, and then sits back and watches his creation tear itself apart, and he does nothing to stop all the violence and human suffering.

KJV, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV, "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe, 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV, "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy, 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

A God who orders his followers to mercilessly massacre an entire race of people and wipe them off the face of the Earth, killing every man, woman, child, and infant and slaughtering all of their animals (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17) is a sadistic and psychopathic monster. A God who commits global genocide, drowning all of humanity in a worldwide flood (except for one man, his wife, his sons, and his son's wives), is a sadistic and psychopathic monster. An omnipotent and omniscient God who deliberately creates evil, disasters, and calamities that inflict pain and suffering on people isn't a loving, merciful God who wants to save humanity.

Now, devout Christians and other Abrahamic theists will immediately fall back on the "freewill" of mankind, but that's nothing more than a feeble cop-out to excuse the absolutely atrocious behavior of the God they worship. For example, if you see another person being physically attacked, you're not going to turn a blind eye and think, "I'm not going to try and save this poor person from being physically attacked (beaten up, raped, or killed) because I don't want to impede on their attacker's freewill!" And if you know a child is being abused, you're not going to think, "I'm not going to try and save this child from being abused because I don't want to impede on their abuser's freewill!" You'd be a morally depraved monster if you refused to do whatever you could to save another person's life.

 

[KW]

If the Bible is accurate, then the Christian God is a sadistic and psychopathic SOB who deliberately inflicts pain and suffering on humans. Forget about all the misleading stories about the Christian God being a loving, merciful heavenly father, because we're talking about a God who deliberately creates evil, disasters, and calamities (Isaiah 45:7), and he creates some people to be wicked: "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4). Is that a loving god?

If the Bible is accurate, then the Christian God cruelly manipulates his creation for his own sick pleasure. Humanity and every other created being in this world are nothing more than his playthings. He obviously takes pleasure in creating total pandemonium in the world, and then sits back and watches his creation tear itself apart, and he does nothing to stop all the violence and human suffering.

KJV, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV, "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe, 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV, "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy, 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

A God who orders his followers to mercilessly massacre an entire race of people and wipe them off the face of the Earth, killing every man, woman, child, and infant and slaughtering all of their animals (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17) is a sadistic and psychopathic monster. A God who commits global genocide, drowning all of humanity in a worldwide flood (except for one man, his wife, his sons, and his son's wives), is a sadistic and psychopathic monster. A God who allowed the Holocaust to happen and all the other horrific atrocities throughout the history of humanity isn't a loving and merciful God who unconditionally loves humanity.

Now, devout Christians and other Abrahamic theists will immediately fall back on the "freewill" of mankind, but that's nothing more than a feeble cop-out to excuse the absolutely atrocious behavior of the God they worship. For example, if you see another person being physically attacked, you're not going to turn a blind eye and think, "I'm not going to try and save this poor person from being physically attacked (beaten up, raped, or killed) because I don't want to impede on their attacker's freewill!" And if you know a child is being abused, you're not going to think, "I'm not going to try and save this child from being abused because I don't want to impede on their abuser's freewill!" You'd be a morally depraved monster if you refused to do whatever you could to save another person's life.

Not a single quote from Christ.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Not a single quote from Christ.

You want a quote from Christ. Okay. The fear of God (not referring to reverence) is primarily based on what's accredited to Jesus himself, saying, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28; NIV). Of course, if anyone knows how cruel the Christian God is, it would be his son.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

And I don't get where he gets this idea from, because the Bible is saturated with passages that condemn LGBT people. "Detestable," "abomination," "perversion," "they shall not inherit the Kingdom." That is what the Bible has to say about LGBT people. And not only that, it says to kill them.
And Jehovah doesn't disown his children? "I never knew you, depart from me" is what Jesus has already said he's going to be saying to many of those who follow him (Matthew 7:23). He also warned against lessening and changing the laws and said those who do will be counted among the least in the Kingdom.

Well said, Shadow Wolf.