Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

[linwood]

Treating someone else as being inferior as a person is immoral in my eyes. However, deciding not to hire people based on certain traits (be they natural or learned) is not immoral.
...
Discriminating:
making a distinction


(Source)

I am well aware of the definition of discrimination.

I am also aware of the difference between equitable and inequitable discrimination.

To propose any human unfit for a position due to any reason other than his/her ability to fulfill the standards of that position is "inequitable discrimination".

Within my worldview this is immoral.

 

[TheKnight]

I am well aware of the definition of discrimination.

I am also aware of the difference between equitable and inequitable discrimination.

To propose any human unfit for a position due to any reason other than his/her ability to fulfill the standards of that position is "inequitable discrimination".

Within my worldview this is immoral.

One doesn't even need to say that they are unfit. They could agree that the person is perfectly qualified for the position. However, if the employer doesnt like certain aspects of the person, then the employer (as one who will be providing finance and benefit to the potential employee) should have the right to reject the person on that basis.

I guess we simply have different ways of looking at it.

 

[emiliano]

The Pope has urged Catholic bishops in England and Wales to fight the UK's Equality Bill with "missionary zeal".
Pope Benedict XVI said the legislation "violates natural law" and could end the right of the Catholic Church to ban gay people from senior positions.
The Pope has confirmed he will visit the UK this year, the first since Pope John Paul II in 1982.
The government said the bill, which is currently going through Parliament, would make the UK a fairer place.
And gay rights campaigners have condemned the Pope's comments.
BBC News - Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

Churches have warned new equality laws could force them to go against their faith when hiring staff.
They say the Equality Bill may force them to employ sexually active gay people and transsexuals when hiring staff other than priests or ministers.

BBC News - Churches fear Equality Bill will conflict with faith
The equality bill

Equality Act 2010

any thoughts?

Why would a gay person want to get a job in Catholic institution?
It seems that what this mean is that the British government is telling the Church who to hire. Is this right?
Does the Pope has a right to select the staff that they find suitable?
All jobs have a criteria that applicants must meet. is their right as employer

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why would a gay person want to get a job in Catholic institution?

To pay their rent, maybe?

It seems that what this mean is that the British government is telling the Church who to hire. Is this right?
Does the Pope has a right to select the staff that they find suitable?
All jobs have a criteria that applicants must meet. is their right as employer

It's the right of an employer to accept or reject applicants based on the actual requirements of the job. It's not the right of an employer to discriminate based on criteria that have nothing to do with the job. Churches shouldn't get a free pass on this normal, reasonable standard.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I can see where Benny is coming from. It's is against the catholic religion to be a practising homosexual.

As archaic as that is, it is their rules.

Many of us have condemned the churches interference in government. We should also be condemning the governments interference in the church.

-Q

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Many of us have condemned the churches interference in government. We should also be condemning the governments interference in the church.

Why?

Why should there be a double standard for churches? Why should they be exempt from the requirements that all other employers have to meet?

 

[Smoke]

I can see where Benny is coming from. It's is against the catholic religion to be a practising homosexual.

As archaic as that is, it is their rules.

Many of us have condemned the churches interference in government. We should also be condemning the governments interference in the church.

Seriously. If they want to operate an international ring of child molesters for fifty years, that's their right. The Catholic Church is the fount of all morality, and no government should ever interfere with it or compel it to follow the law.

 

[arimoff]

The Pope has urged Catholic bishops in England and Wales to fight the UK's Equality Bill with "missionary zeal".
Pope Benedict XVI said the legislation "violates natural law" and could end the right of the Catholic Church to ban gay people from senior positions.
The Pope has confirmed he will visit the UK this year, the first since Pope John Paul II in 1982.
The government said the bill, which is currently going through Parliament, would make the UK a fairer place.
And gay rights campaigners have condemned the Pope's comments.



BBC News - Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill




Churches have warned new equality laws could force them to go against their faith when hiring staff.
They say the Equality Bill may force them to employ sexually active gay people and transsexuals when hiring staff other than priests or ministers.

BBC News - Churches fear Equality Bill will conflict with faith





The equality bill

Equality Act 2010







any thoughts?

I would love to see someone force the church to against their believes, what goes around always comes around

 

[Sunstone]

Many of us have condemned the churches interference in government. We should also be condemning the governments interference in the church.

-Q

Every child-molesting priest on earth applauds you.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Personally i think that the catholic church is the most corrupt organisation on this planet. Their record of human rights violations across the centuries is beyond reproach.

But not every single parish, church or whatever they call themselves is evil. If we as non-catholics want the church to keep out of our governments then how do we justify trying getting the government into the church.

I deplore their views on homosexuality, however it is their right to be bigoted wanktards.

You will see throughout my posts some very anti-religious sentiments but that does not mean i'm blinded by them.

-Q

 

[Panda]

But not every single parish, church or whatever they call themselves is evil. If we as non-catholics want the church to keep out of our governments then how do we justify trying getting the government into the church.
-Q

Because religious organisations do not deserve special treatment. In the eyes of the law they should be treated as all other non-profit organisations. No exceptions from should ever be allowed for religious reasons. If a religious organisation is not happy with this then like any other organisation it can choose to withdraw from certain countries.

 

[LuisDantas]

IIRC it is not legal for private organizations to discriminate employment by race or sexual orientation, either (in the USA).

If so, there is indeed to reason to make exception for religious organizations. In fact, I'm opposed to any kind of exception for religious organizations. Government is not supposed to rule on what is a proper religious organization, for one.

 

[Duck]

Insofar as the Church participates in secular life by doing things like being an employer, it is subject to secular rules. It does not get a free pass from the law just because of its religious nature.

You're asking for a special exemption from normal rules and laws for the Church, but I see absolutely no reason why it should be given. When there is a conflict between spiritual and secular obligations, the secular wins out in the eyes of the secular law.

Also, I notice you didn't touch on the other aspect of this law: it's not just that the Church opposes this law because of its potential effect on itself; it also opposes the law because it apparently feels that anyone, even a secular employer, should have the right to discriminate against homosexual employees and hiring candidates.

9/10ths -- Of course RCC folks are asking for a special exemption from normal rules and laws for the catholic church. How else will they be able to prevent the secular prosecution of their kiddie ******* priests and those which collude with them?

 

[linwood]

any thoughts?

Yes, Ratzinger should keel over and die as soon as possible so he can be replace with an even bigger self righteous idiot.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Because religious organisations do not deserve special treatment. In the eyes of the law they should be treated as all other non-profit organisations. No exceptions from should ever be allowed for religious reasons. If a religious organisation is not happy with this then like any other organisation it can choose to withdraw from certain countries.

I guess i should quantify my response.

Within the church itself i believe they should be able to hire who they like.

Within church operated businesses eg hospitals, i believe they should be subject to fair employment laws.

-Q

 

[Panda]

I guess i should quantify my response.

Within the church itself i believe they should be able to hire who they like.

Within church operated businesses eg hospitals, i believe they should be subject to fair employment laws.

-Q

The church itself is still an employer and should be subject to the same employment rules as everyone else. Why should they be made exempt?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I guess i should quantify my response.

Within the church itself i believe they should be able to hire who they like.

Within church operated businesses eg hospitals, i believe they should be subject to fair employment laws.

The Church itself is a church operated business in the same sense that a hospital is a business.

 

[emiliano]

Penguin;2031957 posted ]To pay their rent, maybe?

I am sure that that in the part of the world were you live employers ask applicants. What can you bring/aport to our organization? What would their response be?

Penguin;2031957 posted, It's the right of an employer to accept or reject applicants based on the actual requirements of the job.

In this case the requirement is that they be Catholics. Consider that part of their functions is to represent the Catholic Church that has it tenets base on the Bible and excludes homosexual as member of this institution.

Penguin;2031957 posted, It's not the right of an employer to discriminate based on criteria that have nothing to do with the job. Churches shouldn't get a free pass on this normal, reasonable standard.[/quote]
This is not an issue of discrimination, but a requirement of the functions that the applicant will have to succeed if hired and this would disqualify a guy person.
Gay people con not be Catholic, thus do not satisfy the criteria for a job in the Church, I suppose that Catholics are exclude from applying for a position with a gay organization.

 

[emiliano]

The Human resources department of any society has the responsibility for the selection of their employees the Church has the right to set the requirements for membership to their society, how can gays prove their suitability?

The right to excommunicate is an immediate and necessary consequence of the fact that the Church is a society. Every society has the right to exclude and deprive of their rights and social advantages its unworthy or grievously culpable members, either temporarily or permanently. This right is necessary to every society in order that it may be well administered and survive. The fundamental proof, therefore, of the Church's right to excommunicate is based on her status as a spiritual society, whose members, governed by legitimate authority, seek one and the same end through suitable means. Members who, by their obstinate disobedience, reject the means of attaining this common end deserve to be removed from such a society.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am sure that that in the part of the world were you live employers ask applicants. What can you bring/aport to our organization? What would their response be?

Usually something like "I'm highly qualified and can do a very good job."

In this case the requirement is that they be Catholics. Consider that part of their functions is to represent the Catholic Church that has it tenets base on the Bible and excludes homosexual as member of this institution.

Baloney. Their job is to represent the Catholic Church. That job ends at the end of the working day. Your way of thinking on this issue was generally abandoned decades ago.

Would it be right for PETA to require any employee to be a vegetarian? If photos surfaced of one of PETA's office cleaners eating a hamburger at a family barbecue, would they be justified in firing the cleaner with cause?

And here's one with a personal connection for me: my grandfather worked for the City of Toronto. During the 30s and 40s, the City had a policy that employees were prohibited from owning land outside the city limits. The justification was like what you describe for the Church: the City decided that its employees were its representatives 24 hours a day, so they should live in the municipality they served.

After WWII, the federal government gave gifts of land to veterans. My grandfather was offered a parcel of land in what is now "cottage country" north of Toronto. He had to refuse it, because taking the land would've meant losing his job.

Do you think that the City of Toronto was justified in having this policy in place?

How about the policy that many airlines had in decades past that all flight attendants had to be women, and had to be unmarried? Was this reasonable?

My aunt worked in the head office of a grocery store chain. While she was there (I believe in the 70s), two of her co-workers were fired for buying groceries from a competing chain on their lunch break. Was this reasonable?

Personally, I don't think any of these examples are reasonable. I think that the Catholic Church's stance on this issue is unreasonable on the same basis.

This is not an issue of discrimination, but a requirement of the functions that the applicant will have to succeed if hired and this would disqualify a guy person.
Gay people con not be Catholic, thus do not satisfy the criteria for a job in the Church, I suppose that Catholics are exclude from applying for a position with a gay organization.

No, they're not. "Being Catholic" is not a reasonable grounds for excluding someone from employment with a gay organization. By the same token, "being Catholic" is not a reasonable requirement for jobs with the Catholic Church.

There may be a limited number of positions within the Church where any valid applicant winds up being Catholic by default - e.g. priest: being ordained is a valid requirement for the position of priest, and it's impossible to be ordained without being Catholic.

However, this doesn't apply to other positions. Teachers, accountants, cleaners, air conditioning technicians, and lawyers (along with many other professions) can work for the Catholic Church and do just as good a job whether or not they're Catholics themselves.