Poll: what if proof of no God?

[DNB]

I have a thought experiment:

Imagine you are somehow secretly in control of the whole world

Then imagine that it comes to your attention that some highly intelligent person has come up with conclusive proof that God does not exist

Any Theist who reads it will be compelled to become an Atheist and stop believing in God, it is that compelling

You have four options:

1. Surpress it - nobody will ever know
2. Allow it to spread on its own - it will eventually become known to all people (do nothing)
3. Loudly publicise it - everyone will know by the following day's evening
4. Initiate a controlled campaign of soft disclosure - it will be released very gradually

Which do you do and why?

I will post my response in a following post

Truth is always the best policy, fallacies are always consequential.

 

[dybmh]

Perception of reality is usually a useless thing, and certainly was during 99% of our evolution. We evolved to employ interpretive short-cuts: heuristics, not critical analysis. This methodology persists. We're not wired to think. It's a learned skill.

EG: A rustle in the grass: Wind? Rat? Smilodon? Which choice would statistically yield more reproductive success?

ok... I'm still not seeing the connection to what I said. Sorry.

 

[PureX]

I suspect this is true for most - and if they are satisfied with conflicting answers. Although my parents didn't inflict religion on me as a child, my mother certainly was a more than good enough example to follow, such that I probably didn't feel any need for the things that religions offered. Hence it seemed rather natural to look elsewhere than towards religions for any needs or questions. Never really looked back.

It doesn't seem to matter much whether the answers people choose conflict with the answers other people choose. What seems to matter is feeling that one has an answer. That one know what to do, more or less. And that they are safe in that knowledge.

 

[PureX]

It’s an assumption that there’s a source and sustainer. These ideas are rooted in old religious lore, not facts. That means it isn’t self-evident.

It's also an assumption that there is no source. One that most people find even more absurd. Which is why humans since the dawn of time have determined that there is a source within which their meaning and purpose resides.

The mysterious among the religious tends to be what they create in their own minds. It’s easy to spot how some believers try to bluff how there are gaps where they can squeeze in God. No facts, just tricky language.

You obsess endlessly over religious particulars because you have no counter to theism in general.

 

[Nakosis]

I have a thought experiment:

Imagine you are somehow secretly in control of the whole world

Then imagine that it comes to your attention that some highly intelligent person has come up with conclusive proof that God does not exist

Any Theist who reads it will be compelled to become an Atheist and stop believing in God, it is that compelling

You have four options:

1. Surpress it - nobody will ever know
2. Allow it to spread on its own - it will eventually become known to all people (do nothing)
3. Loudly publicise it - everyone will know by the following day's evening
4. Initiate a controlled campaign of soft disclosure - it will be released very gradually

Which do you do and why?

I will post my response in a following post

I'd create a truth cult, only release the information after super secret initiation and sell merch.

 

[PureX]

HOW is it self-evident?

That humans everywhere and always have been aware of it as an existential necessity.

What is this undeniable evidence?

It has always been self-evident. Requiring no further corroboration.

It can't be order, or complexity, or diverse living things, because we have well-evidenced explanations for these.

We as yet have no explanations for the existence of these things. We only know a little bit about the physical mechanics that enabled them.

Like storms, earthquakes, disease, or sunrise; once evidence for divine will and power, now understood as natural, unintentional phenomena. How long will it take us to disabuse ourselves of these current "proofs?"

Labeling the forces that cause them does not explain whose forces exist.

If God were self evident, wouldn't he be universally accepted, like gravity or relativity?

God is a universally accepted reality, We just argue over the different ways different people choose to envision the mystery.

Even God believers can't agree about God. For a self-evident entity, God appears awfully nebulous.

We all agree that God exists. Even you. We only argue over the labels and images. Like, for you, God is mindless physicality. For me, God is a profound mystery. For others, God is however they choose to understand it. But the great mystery of source, sustenance, and purpose remains an awareness that all humans share.

The burden is on you to prove it, not on us to disprove it. If the best you can do is "It's self-evident," you haven't met your burden.

I don't have to prove it. It's self-evident. Even YOU are proof of it.

 

[PureX]

An answer to what? I'm sorry if scientific explanations are complicated, or require some basic background knowledge you don't possess, but that's how things stand. Your reasoning is flawed, and your understanding of the issues you opine about is scanty.

I'm sorry that you think science can provide any existential answers. If so, you have clearly fallen under the spell of 'scientism'.

 

[F1fan]

It's also an assumption that there is no source.

And in science you make the fewest assumptions, so there goes your religious concept. Sorry.

One that most people find even more absurd.

That would be the religious who need to make assumptions given the lack of evidence. Too bad. If you want correct answers, follow evidence and use reasoning.

Which is why humans since the dawn of time have determined that there is a source within which their meaning and purpose resides.

What people believed at the dawn of time (civilization) is not credible in the 21st century. These dated traditions of belief isn't useful in the 21st century if you want to know what is true about the universe.

You obsess endlessly over religious particulars because you have no counter to theism in general.

Obsess? That's hyperbole. I'm responding to your continual promotion of ideas that are not factual or necessary for a framework of knowing in the 21st century. If there is any obsession it is you and other theists who keep repeating claims you can't show are rational or factual.

 

[F1fan]

I'm sorry that you think science can provide any existential answers. If so, you have clearly fallen under the spell of 'scientism'.

Religious answers don't really answer anything as they are ideological and anti-reason. They are not fact-based, rather inventions that at best soothe anxiety of the monkey mind. It doesn't actually solve the anxiety, but acts as a distraction from it. A more useful approach is for people to face their anxiety and uncertainty, and learn to value what is true versus fantastic and improbable religious frameworks. Ultimately the fantastic religious framework are so absurd that no rational person can use them to relieve anxiety, and it will only add to it. That means going deeper into the illusion and self-deception to escape.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Religious answers don't really answer anything as they are ideological and anti-reason. They are not fact-based, rather inventions that at best soothe anxiety of the monkey mind. It doesn't actually solve the anxiety, but acts as a distraction from it. A more useful approach is for people to face their anxiety and uncertainty, and learn to value what is true versus fantastic and improbable religious frameworks. Ultimately the fantastic religious framework are so absurd that no rational person can use them to relieve anxiety, and it will only add to it. That means going deeper into the illusion and self-deception to escape.

The problem is that truth is no different than God. You can't point to either.
Further there are at least in practice 7 versions of truth.
So we get this. I value truth and but I don't value the same version as you. Now what?

 

[PureX]

And in science you make the fewest assumptions, so there goes your religious concept. Sorry.

What does science have to do with anything?

That would be the religious who need to make assumptions given the lack of evidence. Too bad. If you want correct answers, follow evidence and use reasoning.

There are no "correct" existential answers. That kind of truth is not available to us.

What people believed at the dawn of time (civilization) is not credible in the 21st century. These dated traditions of belief isn't useful in the 21st century if you want to know what is true about the universe.

What people believe has never been relevant to anyone but the believer. Then or now. Nor does it effect the self-evident awareness of the great mystery of existence that most people refer to as "God" (in English, anyway).

Obsess? That's hyperbole. I'm responding to your continual promotion of ideas that are not factual or necessary for a framework of knowing in the 21st century. If there is any obsession it is you and other theists who keep repeating claims you can't show are rational or factual.

Your whole world view seems to be confined to whatever can fit into a science textbook. While existence is so much greater than that. Not even all our science, all our religion, all our philosophy and all our art combined can even reveal it's edges to us. Let alone it's essence.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

This idea of "proving there is no God" is preposterous. The belief that God exists in more of an opinion than it is a fact of any kind. I refuse to answer this poll because the assumptions made by Eddi in the original post is ridiculous. Yes, I am an atheist when it comes to a God that is separate from reality, as I consider God something that intertwined divinely with reality, but 1 - proving their God, a negative like this, is ultimately impossible, as it is still impossible to observe what is outside the Universe, and 2 - proving that my opinion that reality is God isn't possible either.

I keep explaining to people that the reason why I believe God and reality are the same thing is because living things change, and when they change they have the ultimate ability to change their own divinity, as I believe the divine is natural, not magical or supernatural. But that itself is its own opinion by itself that is impossible to prove or disprove. I'm surprised that @Eddi being the Christian he is would make a thread like this and ultimately I cannot partake in a poll that is explaining a proof for what I consider to be an opinion. It's impossible to prove an opinion.

 

[Eddi]

This idea of "proving there is no God" is preposterous. The belief that God exists in more of an opinion than it is a fact of any kind. I refuse to answer this poll because the assumptions made by Eddi in the original post is ridiculous. Yes, I am an atheist when it comes to a God that is separate from reality, as I consider God something that intertwined divinely with reality, but 1 - proving their God, a negative like this, is ultimately impossible, as it is still impossible to observe what is outside the Universe, and 2 - proving that my opinion that reality is God isn't possible either.

I keep explaining to people that the reason why I believe God and reality are the same thing is because living things change, and when they change they have the ultimate ability to change their own divinity, as I believe the divine is natural, not magical or supernatural. But that itself is its own opinion by itself that is impossible to prove or disprove. I'm surprised that @Eddi being the Christian he is would make a thread like this and ultimately I cannot partake in a poll that is explaining a proof for what I consider to be an opinion. It's impossible to prove an opinion.

I am interested in truth, not dogmatism

Truth lead me to Christianity

In my OP I was imaging a scenario in which truth might lead me away from Christianity

I am confident this will never happen, I think Christianity is true

However, who knows what the future holds

The future has surprised me in the past!

 

[Messianic Israelite]

I have a thought experiment:

Imagine you are somehow secretly in control of the whole world

Then imagine that it comes to your attention that some highly intelligent person has come up with conclusive proof that God does not exist

Any Theist who reads it will be compelled to become an Atheist and stop believing in God, it is that compelling

You have four options:

1. Surpress it - nobody will ever know
2. Allow it to spread on its own - it will eventually become known to all people (do nothing)
3. Loudly publicise it - everyone will know by the following day's evening
4. Initiate a controlled campaign of soft disclosure - it will be released very gradually

Which do you do and why?

I will post my response in a following post

Hi Eddi. Good evening. It won't happen. Yahweh exists and though he hides his face from sinful mankind, He is there watching, taking action and judging. Psalm 10:

"4 The wicked, in the pride of his countenance, says, He will not require it. All his thoughts are, There is no Elohim. 11 He says in his heart, El has forgotten; He hides his face; he will never see it. 12 Arise, O Yahweh; O El, lift up your hand"

Some people are going to have some shock at the Judgment Seat.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Hi Eddi. Good evening. It won't happen. Yahweh exists and though he hides his face from sinful mankind, He is there watching, taking action and judging. Psalm 10:

"4 The wicked, in the pride of his countenance, says, He will not require it. All his thoughts are, There is no Elohim. 11 He says in his heart, El has forgotten; He hides his face; he will never see it. 12 Arise, O Yahweh; O El, lift up your hand"

Some people are going to have some shock at the Judgment Seat.

Well, if there is a God and if you have bet on the right one. But those 2 are ifs. So you might end up just dying or on the wrong side of judgment. That applies as much to you as anybody else, as far as I can tell.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Well, if there is a God and if you have bet on the right one. But those 2 are ifs. So you might end up just dying or on the wrong side of judgment. That applies as much to you as anybody else, as far as I can tell.

Hi mikkel the dane. It simply isn't logical that we're travelling on a huge rock with over 8 billion people on it, spinning through space madly at a s speed of 1000 miles per hour and hurling through space at a speed of 67,000 mph. I really can't for the life of me understand atheism. I can't possibly imagine for one moment that we are here by chance, or by accident. This universe is beyond doubt designed. Yahweh is the True Elohim. And keeping the commandments of Yahweh will allow us entrance in to the Kingdom.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Hi mikkel the dane. It simply isn't logical that we're travelling on a huge rock with over 8 billion people on it, spinning through space madly at a s speed of 1000 miles per hour and hurling through space at a speed of 67,000 mph. I really can't for the life of me understand atheism. I can't possibly imagine for one moment that we are here by chance, or by accident. This universe is beyond doubt designed. Yahweh is the True Elohim. And keeping the commandments of Yahweh will allow us entrance in to the Kingdom.

Well, I am not an atheist. But I still have a different faith than you.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Well, I am not an atheist. But I still have a different faith than you.

Ah I see. My apologies. Well explaining why my faith is correct boils down to the Bible. If you believe in the Bible, we can have a discussion as to why in my faith we have the correct doctrines.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Ah I see. My apologies. Well explaining why my faith is correct boils down to the Bible. If you believe in the Bible, we can have a discussion as to why in my faith we have the correct doctrines.

Well, thanks but no thanks. I am not a theist in any sense, so you have your faith and I have a different one.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Even if a person knows the truth of the matter, death just takes it away.

It's obviously not for humans to know aside from bits and pieces through our experiences while we are living.