1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Poll - war in Iraq

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Melody, Jun 24, 2005.

?
  1. Supported war, but now want out

    3 vote(s)
    8.1%
  2. Did not support war and want out

    16 vote(s)
    43.2%
  3. Supported war and we should finish what we started

    10 vote(s)
    27.0%
  4. Did not support war but should finish what we started

    8 vote(s)
    21.6%
  1. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,261
    Ratings:
    +559
    I had a thought this morning (too hot for more than the one) and am doing more unofficial research and need some input.

    It's probably self-explanatory, but were you an original supporter of the war or did not feel we should be there *and* do you feel we should continue with involvement in Iraq, or pull our troops out?
     
  2. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,261
    Ratings:
    +559
    Oh blast. I've just messed up my own poll by voting for the wrong one <sigh>. Told you it was too hot.
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,667
    Ratings:
    +2,656
    Unfortunately I have to admit to having been duped into accepting the business abot the WMD, duped into thinking that Mr Blair was an ethical and honourable man. As such I did support the war originally, and now feel a bit of a fool.:(


    I now feel that we have a duty to help the Iraquis clear up the mess we are responsible for putting them in.:help:

    P.s I saw you vote the wrong way, melody, but i insist that you do not call your vote a 'spoilt' one.:jiggy:
     
  4. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,261
    Ratings:
    +559
    I should have checked that I did not originally support the war, but now I feel we have a responsibility to at least attempt to leave them with a stable government and infrastructure seeing as how we blew their previous one to hell.
     
  5. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,852
    Ratings:
    +490
    I watched the news this morning on the hearings. They were talking about the fact the Cheney and Rumsfield had stated that the insergeons were in their last throws. However, military officials stated that there were more foreign fighters than there were before, and the insergeons attacks have not dwindled at all in the last six months. When asked, "so are you saying that the insergeons are in their last throws?" He didn't know how to answer without calling Cheney a LIAR.

    This is because to speak against our president, or vice-president, is treason. And our government does punish people who go to far in speaking against the government.
    UNITED STATES CODE TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I - CRIMES CHAPTER 115 - TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

    Section 2388.
    Activities affecting armed forces during war
    (a) Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies; or Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or willfully obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to the injury of the service or the United States, or attempts to do so Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
     
  6. CaptainXeroid

    CaptainXeroid Following Christ

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    4,778
    Ratings:
    +751
    Supported war and believe we now have moral obligation to stabilize the Iraqi government before we leave entirely. However, if I had known back in 2002 what I know now, there is NO WAY I would support the decision to invade. Like Michel, I feel duped and misled.:( Either GWB was hell-bent on invading or our intelligence was severely lacking or some combination thereof.
     
  7. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    11,809
    Ratings:
    +2,115
    Religion:
    Christian
    Wow, there is a big difference between speaking out against the war/president/V.P. and committing treason. Even the law you quoted to help you shows this. You have to be either directly negatively effecting the war, or you have to applaud and promote the victory of the enemy.
     
  8. Dr. Nosophoros

    Dr. Nosophoros Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2004
    Messages:
    910
    Ratings:
    +122
    This is a tough one for me, I did not support the war and "finishing" what some started isn't really a good option either. This wasn't about WMD's, "Freeing" Iraqis or some other humanitarian mission, this was the destruction of a leader of a country that we helped put in power in the first place. The coming to power of the baathists was said by the CIA to be "their greatest coup" Saddam came years later and our government helped him get materials and chemicals for WMD's in their war against Iran while we looked the other way for the most part. I think the main problem was that the U.S. could not control him, sort of like the same situation when we supported the Diem government in Vietnam and then wanted him dead when he was seen as uncontrollable, both were ruthless dictators we helped put in power and both were tolerated when it served our purposes. To me it's the same faulty foreign policy that has been followed for years, we never seem to learn. Civilians are better repressed or dead if it serves our political purposes, but if we can't control the person that we use to kill and repress others for our purposes, we kill or remove them- it's a never ending cycle of stupidity that probably won't change anytime soon.

    There are those that will say that the "Treaty or Versailles" was one of the main reasons Hitler came to power through the subjugation of Germany by other greedy nations. Their greed fertilized the soil to allow Hitler to do what he did, I myself believe it was a large factor in his rise (up for debate), but as the "Treaty of Versailles" may have been a large contributor to Adolph Hitlers rise to power I think it could also be reasonably said that the CIA's deep involvement in the Baathist coup in Iraq which later allowed Saddam to come to power can also be to blame, history does repeat itself, just in different ways.

    I think another major thing we need to look at, and I mean seriously look at, is the extent we have been lied to or the government has attempted to lie to us and our medias seeming complacency in spreading this propaganda to the masses to garner support and it's continuing deceptions, sometimes the deception is silence to that which may be seen as harmful to the "cause". The tools to gain support is jingoism and symbolism that can be used to manipulate emotion (taught mentalities don't hurt either)these are the deceptions behind which these cowards hide to get and keep support for what they wish to achieve, the sheep follow and bleat. The memory and symbolism of 9/11 was used to help support the war effort and is still being used to manipulate emotions and thought which causes either support for or apathy towards that which overall destroys the fabric of this country. A perfect example (though this has little to do with Iraq) was the flag burning issue.[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]

    California Congressmen Randy Cunningham (R):

    "Ask the men and women who stood on top of the world trade center" "Ask them and they will tell you- pass this ammendment"

    How long will 9/11 be milked for it's emotional power to manipulate, how long will it's memory and imagery be used as an excuse and leverage by some?- as long as enough people let them.

    I'm supposed to vote, but I think overall this whole thing is a big s#*t sandwich that we all have to take a bite of made by someone else for other purposes than which they say it was made for and people are still dying because of it, I'll vote later but I don't think we have much choice but to stay, we helped make the mess, so we should try to clean it up but I don't think we will ever truly learn from it, unfortunately.
    [/font]
    [/font]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,852
    Ratings:
    +490
    I said if someone GOES TOO FAR in speaking against our government. We do still have the freedom of speech, for the moment.
     
  10. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    11,809
    Ratings:
    +2,115
    Religion:
    Christian
    That was in reference to the part about speaking out against pres/vice pres being treason. It is not. I also agree that anyone who interferes in the operations of the military should be jailed.

    Please. Our first amendment freedoms aren't going anywhere in the forseeable future.
     
  11. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,852
    Ratings:
    +490
    This is because we have measures in place that protect us from any leader being leader for too long.
     
  12. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    9,125
    Ratings:
    +2,763
    Religion:
    Something else
    I never supported the war in Iraq, or Afghanistan. Bring the troops home.
     
  13. Ronule

    Ronule Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    43
    Ratings:
    +5
    I did not support the war then or now, and I think we need to bring back our soldiers. I would like to see help given for what we did, but I feel that we need to get our people out first.

    And about treason, I say the government should have no right to jail a person for supporting another opposing country. Besides the basic idea that was supposed to be the point of America in the beginning was that the PEOPLE were in charge not the government, and therefore if anything should be charged for treason, it should be our government.
     
  14. Original Freak

    Original Freak I am the ORIGINAL Freak

    Joined:
    May 6, 2005
    Messages:
    878
    Ratings:
    +110
    I'm Canadian so I'm allowed to call George Shrub (Little Bush) a ****** **** **** **** *** ** ** ***** *** ***.

    I think it's time for an exit strategy. I think they need out, but I think the need to fix what they broke to a greater extent.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,027
    Ratings:
    +485
    Nothing new here. More liberal hogwash. Yes, we supported Saddam during his war with Iran, after the Iranians had stormed our embassy and taken hostage or killed United States citizens. Additionally Iran was and is the chief sponsor of glogal terrorism. To say that we are hypocrites for doing what was in our best interest at the time, shows quite plainly the nearsightedness of the liberal mentality. Thank you for that.

    I don't know where you are getting your bull from, but it is really thick, really smelly and hardly believable. You must sight sources if you want anyone to take seriously such allegations. And please don't sight a Michael Moore movie as your evidence.

    Yeah, Diem was a jerk in a puppet regime set up by our country. I fail to see how you can equate this as any kind of proof for the US putting Saddam in power. Please show evidence.

    Wow, that was truly amazing. How you went from, the US put Saddam in power and now we don't like him, to, civilians are better dead if it serves our purposes, without any proof or reference, is amazing. I am just surprised you didn't throw us in as being responsible for the holocaust, Noriega, the drug cartels and the creation of AIDS too.

    Okay, nevermind, you did try to tie in Hitler and the holocaust. I'm getting more and more impressed. This is truly amazing. Again, where is your proof that the CIA had anything to do with the baathist rise to power in Iraq? Real proof.

    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]So, do you not believe that those who died in 9/11 deserve remembering? Do you not believe that their murders count for something and should be remembered in the future? Do you not believe that this horrible tragedy should be used as our motivation to war against those terrorists that are still out there? What exactly is your point? It seems that you are upset that people use the event to help fight the cause of defending our country and stopping the global threat of terrorism.

    IT was an emotional event that no one should ever forget for its effect on how we look at ourselves in the world and how some in the world hate us and everything that we stand for. I think it should be remembered for a very long time and Ithink everytime it is remembered that we should shed a tear or two in remembrance of those who where murdered. Personally, I am tired of those who would try to make me feel guilty for wanting to remeber them and act to prevent such tragedies again. To me, that is cruel cowardess. The kind of person who would stand behind the dead and pretend not to see them, is blind to the reality of our world.

    Oh no, not the oil again. Please, will you guys geet off of this made up idea that Bush did it for the oil? Please see previous thread about the lack of evidence for this and start using some other unreasonable excuse, because I am getting tired of this one. Or wait, are you saying he did it for his Daddy? That's one of my varorite fairy tales.

    So, you think that we shoudl stay and fix our mess? How noble of you. Personally, I supported the war, whether their were WMD's or not. Okay, so he didn't have them. He acted like a guilty person every time inspectors tried to look at areas of iterest. HE was totally uncooperative with everyone. His recent history shows that he and his sons enjoy killing and raping people. He had gassed thousand of kurds in the north. There are thousands of mass graves for those he killed indiscrimenately. He invaded Kuwait and killed thousands there (innocents there as well, you should hear some of the stories). He was a very, very bad man and the world is better off without him. Like it or not, this is why he deserved to go. We take the country and the Fedayeen Sadam dress in civilian attire, take pot shots from behind innocent women and children, get trained to be terrorists, and suddenly just about everybody looses their resolve to fight and end this thing. That, is cowardly. Where there WMD? At the time of the invasion, no. Could there have been? Absolutely. Did Saddam give us any reason not to believe that he was clean? No. I really don't know what everyone is so upset about? He is gone, and terrorists are coming to Iraq to be taken out by the finest fighting force in the world. You may not like the way it is going, but we were right to go in there in the beginning, and we are right to stay and finish the job. Period. To tuck your tail and run because you don't like the way things are going, is very cowardly. I feel sorry for that mentality.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Neo-Logic

    Neo-Logic Reality Checker

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,223
    Ratings:
    +332
    My philosophy is committment and consistancy all the way through. Whether we think it's right or wrong, it is undeniable that the people of Iraq have gained their freedom and liberty compared to the conditions and lifestyle that they previously had. And please, don't ask questions on why not this country or that country. The fact is, it's done and we gave freedom to a countr and whatever other ulterior motives we may harbor does not matter much at this point.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Original Freak

    Original Freak I am the ORIGINAL Freak

    Joined:
    May 6, 2005
    Messages:
    878
    Ratings:
    +110
    I doubt they are enjoying their freedom being in a war zone day after day, with more people become insurgents as time passes.
     
  18. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,027
    Ratings:
    +485
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-20-bloggers_x.htm
    http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65409&topic=anticapitalism&results_offset=90
    http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/04/sprj.irq.media/
    http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/Archive/2004/Aug/31-229824.html
    There are plenty of reasons to be sonvinced that the people of Iraq are better off with their new freedoms. Why are you so set on convincing yourself and anyone that will listen, that we have made life worse for these people. It simply isn't true.
     
  19. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +62
    ^opinion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. almifkhar

    almifkhar Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    985
    Ratings:
    +104
    i did not buy anything bush sr. said in 1991 and i still didn't buy anything bush jr. had to say. we have no business there what so ever then and now. we completely destroyed iraqs government and created economic collapse, and caused the deaths of far too many people which unfortunaly means that the only way for iraq to get it together is for iraq to solve things on their own. i also feel that our leaders who decided to invade and sanction then and now should be hauled into the hague for war crimes, and crimes against humanity. maybe if the leaders of the invading countries were held responsible for their crimes, perhaps iraqis would be able to do things more peacefully for the survival of their country.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...