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Featured Poll: Signs of eloquence of Quran

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Link, Aug 2, 2022.

?
  1. Perfectly calculated words that can only be from God

    18.8%
  2. Beyond human calculated words, but possibly from misguided higher intelligent beings

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Capable of a human that knows eloquence at a very high level that very little reach

    6.3%
  4. One human can't do it but it's capable of many humans who have advance knowledge of eloquence

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Perfectly calculated words capable of only God or his exalted chosen ones

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. At a level capable of any human as it's not eloquent at all

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. At a level many humans can do, as it's eloquent, but not to a level only a few can reach

    31.3%
  8. I don't know

    43.8%
  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Ill tell you what!

    Give me the direct source if you could find. Not secondary sources, direct sources.
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Forget divinity for the moment. Just concentrate on the argument.

    You made a claim that one must feel it and that was your criteria. Where did you get that from?

    That is appealing to majority.

    Can you explain their method behind it? What do they do and what are their so called "criteria"?
     
  3. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    The only references I can find online all seem to trace to "The Sources of Islam" by William St Clair Tisdall. You can read it online but you have to dowload and register for an app which is a pain in the bottom.

    Unless you know of a better way to get to the direct source?
     
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Tisdall is third party or fourth party source.

    Try and find the original or primary source.
     
  5. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Why do your arguments always seem to consist of the endless asking of questions rather than making any actual arguments?

    Make your arguments about why it should be considered divine, then I'll answer your questions, deal?
     
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  6. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Any suggestion on how to do so or where it might be located?
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    There are none.
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You made an assertion. So I asked the proper basis behind it. If you don't have a basis all you have to is say you just thought so. I did not claim anywhere in this thread the Qur'an is divine. And I definitely didnt make any assertion like that with you in this thread. So your attempt is at a strawman.

    Obviously you don't know what you are talking about so you just made some assertions up and cant substantiate any of them in the real world, so you have to turn around and ask me to prove some other position. That is the burden of proof fallacy. Just admit that you were making things up on the go based on your feelings.

    Just for your information, the so called "Eloquence" is not just "sounds nice" or some simplistic thing like that. It has much more to it. You have to honestly at least try to explore what it is prior to making commentary you don't understand anything about.
     
  9. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Is your position that we can not say the Quran is Divine based on its eloquence, or that we can?

    Again, feel free to make any actual argument in support of your position. Just saying "you are wrong and you are ignorant" is not an argument.

    If you feel I've missed something or got something wrong, just point it out. It would take less effort and be far more interesting than your tediously self-aggrandising schtick that does anything but make an actual argument.
     
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  10. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    None as in no primary sources?
     
  11. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Do you mean no suggestions? If you do then it sounds like it's above my pay grade to chase up a source for the legend.

    In my opinion.
     
  12. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Daniel. There are no original or primary sources for this.
     
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  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    None. Not even secondary sources.
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    That's irrelevant to the claim you made. I do not make this claim.

    "My position" is that you made a false assertion with no knowledge of anything in this subject so you are trying to turn it around to others dishonestly. So now you are trying to change "My position".

    The evidence for that position is in this thread where it is evident you made claims made out of thin air but when asked how, a small query on your subject matter knowledge you are doing the burden of proof fallacy. Keep repeating it, so even you cant trace your fallacy. ;)

    Cheers.
     
  15. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    But, in general, you do indeed believe the Quran's eloquence marks it as divine? Correct?

    :rolleyes:

    Good grief, if you even spent 1/10th of the time reading carefully, thinking and engaging in good faith discussion as you do blowing your own trumpet, you might be less likely to miss the point quite so consistently.

    Of course those were my own thoughts. There are no objective standards to identify whether a text is divine in origin. There are no experts. There is no go to textbook. Everyone is ultimately making claims out of thin air as they are all based on their own personal criteria.

    As such, one person can make their subjective argument, and another can make theirs. People can decide which one they want to believe. Is this really that hard for you to understand?

    What I said, divinity must be:

    a) felt intuitively
    b) identified based on a specific characteristic or characteristics that humans are not capable of producing - in which case what are they?
    c) identified based on characteristics that humans are capable of producing but not to that standard, or in that number or combination. In which case there would have to be some "divine" threshold.

    Seeing as I've never seen any evidence for B, and don't think C could make divinity more probable than human eloquence, I think a genuinely divine text should be pretty self-evident to anyone who can understand it. Before you start getting excited again, yes, this is a subjective opinion. Just like your one is and everyone else's.

    Feel free to critique any of these points, identify which ones I have missed out or state your opinion on the topic. It's called discussion. Or you could just make another post saying nothing in an overweeningly pompous manner. Choice is yours ;)
     
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  16. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Looks like it was just a claim made by Tisdall. I suppose I should have applied Hitchens razor to the claim, but it took me a while to find a copy of his book so that I could see that he doesn't cite a source for it.

    In my opinion.
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Irrelevant.

    Based on what did you make these criteria?
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Maybe.
     
  19. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    You must be fun at parties...

    It's a simple question.

    Read the previous post (more carefully this time).
     
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  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Parties are also irrelevant you see?

    So based on what did you develop your theories? Did you just make them up based on your feelings? Are they are strawman attempt?

    Or is it that you just have no knowledge on the topic to make some objective argument against it with some decent analysis?
     
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