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Featured Poll: Signs of eloquence of Quran

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Link, Aug 2, 2022.

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  1. Perfectly calculated words that can only be from God

    18.8%
  2. Beyond human calculated words, but possibly from misguided higher intelligent beings

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Capable of a human that knows eloquence at a very high level that very little reach

    6.3%
  4. One human can't do it but it's capable of many humans who have advance knowledge of eloquence

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Perfectly calculated words capable of only God or his exalted chosen ones

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. At a level capable of any human as it's not eloquent at all

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. At a level many humans can do, as it's eloquent, but not to a level only a few can reach

    31.3%
  8. I don't know

    43.8%
  1. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    @Link

    Suppose for a moment the eloquence of the Qur'an is divine. That would be the original text, memorised by Mohammed (PBUH) and transcribed in Arabic.

    You have no reason to suppose English translations maintain their divine eloquence, do you?
     
  2. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    There's still a lot to see even in translations as imperfect as they are. The things I showed in the signs of eloquence don't need you know Arabic to appreciate.

    A lot, even most of it, get's lost when not in Arabic, but there's still signs to see that it's from God in the translations.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Your poll will give you arbitrary opinions only. It will all be bias. But I'm sure you know that.
     
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    If I may?

    You are right. Eloquence is a particular study. It's called Ilme Balaga. It can only be analysed in Arabic. For example, take an old English poem that rhymes. And if it's a long poem the tone changes when needed. The voice changes when needed. When you translate it to lets say another language like Arabic, can we maintain the same writers style that you got in English? It's absolutely difficult. I don't know how you could do it really.

    Eloquence in the Arabic poetry and writing style of the Qur'an is not what we will think of when someone says the word Eloquence. We tend to think too simplistically.

    Nevertheless, you are right. English translations do not maintain the eloquence. A translator can try his levels best to try and "maintain" the eloquence, but that will turn into a weird poetic writeup, not a translation. I don't think it's possible.
     
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  5. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    The more I read the Holy Quran the more I am overwhelmed by its beauty and truth. But what is more important to me is that it is from God and I see the exact same truth in the Words of Baha’u’llah. If I were to deny Baha’u’llah I would have to deny Muhammad and the Quran because to me they are One and the same, all from the one God.

    Of course, the Message from God today will be different but also a test to those who claim to be true believers. That is why if eloquence is being used to judge God’s Words then if God sends a Message which is not eloquent then we reject it? No, we should accept everything God sends to us unconditionally.

    This is the test on the day of judgement. Some expect eloquence, others expect Christ to come riding on clouds. And when these expectations are not met, then people disbelieve and turn away from God.

    That is your test and for you to pass or not.

    Sura 29:2

    Do people think they will be left alone after saying ‘We believe’ without being put to the test?
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Have you read the Qayoom al asma of the bab? Have you done some research on the linguistics and compared it with the Qur'an? That being a claimed superimposition of the same eloquence of the Qur'an, thus I ask.
     
  7. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Thanks for the extrapolation, I appreciate the clarity.
    That's kinda what I figured. Even a really good translator is putting a level of human intervention and fallibility between the original text and the translated version.

    For that reason I answered 'I don't know'. As an atheist, my assumption would always be that at best they were written by one or more eloquent humans. But I can't judge the original text, so that seems the appropriate answer.
     
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  8. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I only know that the more I read the Quran the more I love it and the same with the Holy Words of all God’s Messengers.
     
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  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I understand.
     
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  10. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    In human life.

    For thousands of years each of us born a baby.

    We become an adult. We are first mutual a member of the human race.

    We are innate aware naturally without discussion. Aware of self survival and nature's remedies.

    We are aware of both good and evil ourselves.

    We own the belief as just a human first.

    Hence I challenge your belief as you can challenge my belief. As we're all just humans.

    So if you choose a topic and claim the God that is good. It would not be evil not know evil as it could not move beyond its own hierarchy.

    Why I believe a human should not claim their thoughts better than someone else. Yet in human behaviour they do.

    If we are all created equally. There hence can never be a human argument at all.
     
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  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I ask because the topic is very specific. It's the luhaweeyun or the study of language and writing. It's the Ilme Balagha or the study of the so called "eloquence". Not about "love" or preaching.

    If anyone spends some time studying the Qur'an, the Bab's writings and Bahailah's writings, they are poles apart. can never be matched. No way. I am sorry but trying to bring in Bahai writings into the same picture is just a vain attempt.

    If a Jew has a thread on a similar topic on the Jewish writings, I will say "I have no clue because I am absolutely ignorant of the linguistic beauty of the Hebrew writings". That is the honest response. I will not try to bring the Qur'an into that equation and hitch a ride. The day I make that study of the Hebrew language to "that level", I will make some analysis. And for me to educate myself on the Hebrew language to "that level", it might take me 7 years of full time study. I don't know I am speculating. Maybe more.
     
  12. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I remember the very first time I read the Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah. I hardly understood a word but it was like reading a song. It had a most beautiful melody and blending of words that is inexplicable. A beauty, a majesty, a song. It was like riding the words as if waves on an ocean. The perfection was just so clear to me that it was God’s Word not any mortal man’s.

    The other Writings of His I feel the same melodic harmony and perfection in the context and relevancy for this age. It was through Baha’u’llah’s Words I came to read the Quran and it is so addictive. I feel so much hunger spiritually to read and understand more and to me the Quran has a matchless beauty that makes it undoubtedly the Word of God.

    But in my soul I feel the same beauty and perfection in both the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the Quran after years of reading. The Bab the same. They each have Their own style but to me it is different styles of perfection. That is, the Word of God revealed in different contexts for different purposes but all perfection.

    Whether they meet any human standards of grammar etc is irrelevant to me with regards to ascertaining truth. If God gives me a sweet melon or a sour grape it’s the same to me because it is from God so I accept gracefully, gratefully and humbly as His servant.
     
  13. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    As humans are in the experience as the writings depict.

    An analogy would quote my star fall conscious aware teaching very ancient was for more severe than the Baha'i. Yet we were holier then. As the Jesus attack hadn't been received.

    Seeing the star mass Baha'i term was smaller and colder that returned to earth sacrificing life mind again.

    I owned a stated literature of the scientific symbolism and number use. Holy teaching advices.

    So the language idealism of man gaining the advice would vary.

    I ask a basic question should life have been sacrificed?

    The responses I've always gained from holy men was that man had done wrong yet he was innocent of original sin. Scientific clause in documents.

    To a human review it's scientific reasonings as thought by a holy human man's mind changed but saved. Stated holy as natural anything is holy first.

    As you write when it was accountable. No future of new change is hence stated. Yet I think the Baha'i demonstrated once again that human men are in receipt of advice.

    Supportive in context.

    If human minds couldn't be changed whilst living naturally they wouldn't be changed whilst living naturally.
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Some one had made it poetic in English. That's not how Bahaullah wrote it.

    The topic is not if anything is the word of God.

    This is just preaching. You have not studied any of these documents. You are just preaching with lovely enticing words you think work on people. No it does not. For you to speak about human or any standards of grammar, you have to know the grammar.

    This may work in your group, but not in a topic like this.
     
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  15. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Well you did say let's not bring Baha'i into the conversation, but what you offer about the Writings of Baha'u'llah is not supported by the Muslims that Baha'u'llah gave the Revelation to.

    Most were amazed at the power and elegance of the revealed verses.

    Maybe you need to research this, as not to make comments that are not supported by historical records.

    Here is an extract from but one occasion.

    "...One of the most outstanding events of Bahá'u'lláh's sojourn in Sulaymáníyyih, which captured the hearts of the people, was the revelation in public of a poem in Arabic known as Qasídiy-i-Varqá'íyyih. The divines of Sulaymáníyyih requested Bahá'u'lláh to undertake a task, which no one had previously accomplished, of writing a poem in the same rhyme as Qasídiy-i-Tá'íyyih, one of the works of the celebrated Arabic poet Ibn-i-Fárid.

    Accepting their request, Bahá'u'lláh dictated no less than two thousand verses as He sat in their midst. Amazed at such a revelation, those present were spellbound and lost in admiration at His performance. They acclaimed His verses as far superior in their beauty, lucidity and profundity to the original poem by Ibn-i-Fárid. Knowing that the subject-matter was beyond the people's comprehension, He chose one hundred and twenty-seven verses and allowed them to be copied..."

    So you can see, your comments are not based on historical records, records of those that heard Baha'u'llah reveal the verses of Allah, not knowing who Baha'u'llah was. :)

    Regards Tony
     
  16. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Your comments are not supported by those who heard Baha'u'llah revealed verses.

    I see a dogmatic bias would be the only difference.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    That's just ad hominem. Irrelevant. Absolutely irrelevant.

    The book is there to read any day, any time. So study it, and present the Ilme Balagha in it and then, that's a relevant discussion.
     
  18. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    To be honest I don't see the difference between your accusations of bias and Tony's.

    In my opinion.
     
  19. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    Even an eloquent Quran can be misinterpreted. Once pricipal can be emphasized over another by cherry-picking out the things we don't want, and cherry-picking in the things that we do want. Christians over-emphasize Gays (the bible is filled with things that we are not supposed to do, so why focus on just that?). Zealot preachers (Khomeni, for example) use their religion to attack those who embarrass their religion. Khomeni issued a death threat against Solmon Rushdie for writing "Satanic Verses."

    Islam: The Quran itself preaches violence against nonbelievers

    According to the website above, the Quran preaches violence against non-believers.
     
  20. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    How could the various versions (King James, etc.) of the New Testament be exactly the same, yet worded differently? That would be a miracle. As it is, the bibles have contradictions (obvious mistakes).
     
  21. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Responses to Polls will be bias in a topic like this. I will respond with bias. Every positive response to this poll will be done arbitrarily. Making assumptions Those who say I don't know, are making a direct response with what they know, the others are just arbitrary.

    But when someone makes an assessment about a text, you can read any day, any time and make an analysis without making any analysis, is just arbitrary. It's fallacious to do that.

    If you think I am making just statements about the Qur'an and the book Qayoom al asma written by the bab, ask me questions about both of them, and I will show you where my statement comes from. So rather than again trying to get involved in someone else's conversation just to do an ad hominem, a Tu Quoque, and start another baseless argument up and down, make it objective. Present your argument to support Tony, from both the scripture, or even the Kithab al Akdhas, point the Balagha or this so called "eloquence" in literary studies, compare and show me your data, and then that is a relevant argument.

    Otherwise its just irrelevant.

    Thanks.
     
    #40 firedragon, Aug 3, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2022
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