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Featured Poll: Signs of eloquence of Quran

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Link, Aug 2, 2022.

?
  1. Perfectly calculated words that can only be from God

    18.8%
  2. Beyond human calculated words, but possibly from misguided higher intelligent beings

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Capable of a human that knows eloquence at a very high level that very little reach

    6.3%
  4. One human can't do it but it's capable of many humans who have advance knowledge of eloquence

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Perfectly calculated words capable of only God or his exalted chosen ones

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. At a level capable of any human as it's not eloquent at all

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. At a level many humans can do, as it's eloquent, but not to a level only a few can reach

    31.3%
  8. I don't know

    43.8%
  1. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    Are you saying that the Quran has had words removed to make it better, by making it less clear?
     
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  2. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    Nope. You have completely lost me here.

    What was ambiguous about the original?
    It was clear but it was also discriminatory and violent. I made it better by removing the discriminatory and violent language.
    Now, if you are claiming that it was not really discriminatory or violent, but its ambiguity allows people to interpret it as discriminatory and violent, then I improved it by removing that dangerous ambiguity.
    Challenge completed!
     
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  3. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    You would improve it if it was not the case that Mohammad (s) is the Seal of Anbiya. But as the final book to humanity, it has to go this approach.

    If Mohammad (s) was not the last Nabi, you would have a valid point.

    Anyways, no point of repeating.
     
  4. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    For you perhaps,I actually like poetry but why would a God that is omnipotent omniscient omnipresent need poetry in a book to make people believe?.

    For example “the Miraj or “night fligh” by Muhammed,the Burag flying horse or Mule,for me it has the flavour of the “Arabian nights” folktale,it is unbelievable because it has no precedent,there are no flying horses or Mules ever recorded and even if you put it into prose there really isn’t any empirical truth in one Syrah imo.

     
    #224 England my lionheart, Aug 7, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2022
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  5. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    If you believe the sounds are perfect and the meaning is perfect, that is fair enough. This is your perception. If you believe it is the perfect and uncreated word of God and this makes it inimitable, again, fair enough, that is a belief you are entitled to.

    What I disagree with FD on is that this is an objective judgement even if we do not start from that premise. That is anyone who would prefer the sound or meaning to be different is demonstrably wrong. With the Quran, people don't even agree on what the meaning of numerous verses is, so 2 people who think the meaning is perfect might actually be interpreting it in different, and even contradictory, ways.

    Let's say someone's favourite song was Sympathy for the devil by the Rolling Stones, if someone made any changes to the song in terms of words or music, they might perceive this as making the song worse.

    They might also create a method of analysing what makes the perfect song, by identifying the compositional and lyrical make up of the song. By these standards, the song would be inimitable, no song could better fit these criteria than Sympathy for the devil.

    If the means by which something is judged are self-referential, nothing can be more like it than itself. But someone else could prefer a different song.
     
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  6. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Exactly, it is painting a target around the arrow then saying other arrows are not on target.

    In my opinion.
     
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  7. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    But you are not addressing the issue.
    The challenge was to improve one verse of the Quran by changing some words.
    I did that.
    It is better because it is both less ambiguous and less discriminatory and violent.
    Your excuse that the Quran is better because it is unclear and ambiguous in its instructions on how to treat women is obvious nonsense and your attempts to justify your argument have simply failed because it makes no sense to anyone but yourself.
    So - challenge completed.
    Therefore either the Quran was written by humans or Allah is talking to me.
    QED!

    Every time you post nonsense, I will correct it. It's my job.
     
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  8. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    According to hadith, Buraj was a donkey with telescopic legs that could cross mountains with one step - which is both cool and utterly weird.
     
  9. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Off reading donkey,that really is weird.
     
  10. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Go go gadget donkey legs lol
     
  11. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    Salam @Augustus

    You are right. This is why the "subject" per Quran needs to pray for guidance. And act on some things (help the poor, not speak meaningless speech with those who do, pray to God try to connect to him).

    The Quran is a written in a way, if you soften your heart and fear God, everything opens up, but if you harden your heart, the meaning becomes ambiguous.

    In the past, holy books were more explicit and clear in details, but they were "changed" by the enemies of God and his anointed Kings.

    Quran is a clear book but only when reflection can break locks blown upon by the sorcerers.

    It's part of it's hard trial, that God allowed Satan and his forces, to blown upon verses, lock meanings that are otherwise clear by language, and blind humanity to the clear recitation.

    With the Sunnah, the Quran becomes vividly clear and it's safeguarded through Ahlulbayt (a).

    The name of God is not just written in words, it's light inwardly verified by words of Quran, and the words of Ahlulbayt (a) clarify Quran in a way known only to believers who's hearts have been tested for faith.

    This mysterious nature of Quran, where God misguides the hard hearted and guides the soft hearted, is a trial, to me, that proves it from God even more so.

    The dark magic upon the Quran is defeated by clear signs and , is a proof for the Quran even more.

    This is part of a prayer taught by Imam Sajjad (a) (4th successor) upon completing a recitation of Quran:


    أَللَّهُمَّ فَإذْ أَفَدْتَنَا الْمعُونَةَ عَلَى تِلاَوَتِهِ،
    al-laahum-ma faad'- afat-tanaal-mau'wnata a'laa tilaawatih
    15.O God, since You hast given us help to recite it

    وَسَهَّلْتَ جَوَاسِيَ أَلْسِنَتِنَا بِحُسْنِ عِبَارَتِهِ،
    wa sah-hal-ta jawaaseea al-sinatinaa bih'us-ni i'baaratih
    16.and made smooth the roughness of our tongues through the beauty of its expression,

    فَاجْعَلْنَا مِمَّنْ يَرْعَاهُ حَقَّ رِعَايَتِهِ،
    faj-a'l-naa mim-man yar-a'ahoo h'aq-qa ria'ayatih
    17.place us among those who observe it as it should be observed,

    وَيَدِينُ لَكَ بِاعْتِقَادِ التَّسْلِيْمِ لِمُحْكَمِ آياتِهِ،
    wa yadeenu laka bia'-tiqaadit-tas-leemi limuh'-kami aaayaatih
    18.serve You by adhering in submission to the firm text of its verses,

    وَيَفْزَعُ إلى الإِقْرَارِ بِمُتَشَابِهِهِ وَمُوضَحَاتِ بَيِّناتِهِ.
    wa yaf-zau' ilaal-iq-raari bamutashaabihihee wamooz''ah'aati bay-yinaatih
    19.and seek refuge in admitting both its ambiguous parts and the elucidations of its clear signs!

    أللَّهُمَّ إنَّكَ أَنْزَلْتَهُ عَلَى نَبِيِّكَ
    al-laahum-ma in-naka anzal-tahoo a'laa nabee-yika
    20.O God, You sent it down upon Your prophet

    مُحَمَّد صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ مُجْمَلاً،
    muh'am-madin s'al-laal-laahoo a'lay-hee wa aaalihee muj-malaa
    21.Muhammad (God bless him and his household) in summary form,

    وَأَلْهَمْتَهُ عِلْمَ عَجَائِبِهِ مُكَمَّلاً،
    wa al-ham-tahoo i'l-ma a'jaaa-ibihee mukam-malaa
    22.You inspired him with the science of its wonders to complement it,

    وَوَرَّثْتَنَا عِلْمَهُ مُفَسَّراً،
    wa war-rath-tanaa i'l-mahoo mufas-saraa
    23.You made us the heirs of its knowledge as interpreters,

    وَفَضَّلْتَنَا عَلَى مَنْ جَهِلَ عِلْمَهُ،
    wa faz''-z''al-tanaa a'laa man jahila i'l-mah
    24.You made us to surpass him who is ignorant of its knowledge,

    وَقَوَّيْتَنَا عَلَيْهِ لِتَرْفَعَنَا فَوْقَ مَنْ لَمْ يُطِقْ حَمْلَهُ.
    wa qaw-way-tanaa a'lay-hee litar-faa'naa faw-qa mal-lam yut'iq h'am-lah
    25.and You gave us strength over it to raise us above those not able to carry it.

    أللَّهُمَّ فَكَمَا جَعَلْتَ قُلُوبَنَا لَهُ حَمَلَةً،
    al-laahum-ma fakamaa jaa'l-ta quloobanaa lahoo h'amalah
    26.O God, just as You hast appointed our hearts as its carriers

    وَعَرَّفْتَنَا بِرَحْمَتِكَ شَرَفَهُ وَفَضْلَهُ،
    wa a'r-raf-tanaa birah'-matika sharafahoo wafaz''-lah
    27.and made known to us through Your mercy its nobility and excellence,

    فَصَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّد الْخَطِيْبِ بِهِ،
    fas'al-li a'laa muh'am-madinl-khat'eebi bihee
    28.so also bless Muhammad, its preacher,

    وَعَلَى آلِهِ الْخُزّانِ لَهُ،
    wa a'laaa aaalihil-khuz-zaani lah
    29.and his Household, its guardians,

    وَاجْعَلْنَا مِمَّنْ يَعْتَرِفُ بِأَنـَّهُ مِنْ عِنْدِكَ
    waj-a'l-naa mim-may-yaa'-tarifu bi n-nahoo min i'ndika
    30.and place us among those who confess that it has come from You,

    حَتَّى لاَ يُعَارِضَنَا الشَّكُّ فِي تَصْدِيقِهِ
    h'at-taa laa yua'ariz''anaash-shak-ku fee tas'-deeqih
    31.lest doubt about attesting to it assail us,

    وَلاَ يَخْتَلِجَنَا الزَّيْغُ عَنْ قَصْدِ طَرِيقِهِ.
    wa laa yakh-talijanaaz-zay-ghu a'n qas'-di t'areeqih
    32.or deviation from its straightforward path shake us!

    أللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّد وَآلِـهِ،
    al-laahum-ma s'al-li a'laa muh'am-madiw-wa aaalih
    33.O God, bless Muhammad and his Household

    وَاجْعَلْنَا مِمَّنْ يَعْتَصِمُ بِحَبْلِهِ،
    waj-a'l-naa mim-man yaa'-tas'imu bih'ab-lih
    34.and make us one of those who hold fast to its cord,

    وَيَـأْوِي مِنَ الْمُتَشَـابِهَاتِ إلَى حِرْزِ مَعْقِلِهِ،
    wa yaa-wee minal-mutashaabihaati ilaa h'ir-zi maa'-qilih
    35.seek haven from its ambiguities in its fortified stronghold,

    وَيَسْكُنُ فِي ظِـلِّ جَنَاحِهِ،
    wa yas-kunu fee z'il-li janaah'ih
    36.rest in the shadow of its wing,

    وَيَهْتَدِي بِضَوْءِ صَباحِِهِ،
    wa yah-tadee biz''aw-i s'abaah'ih
    37.find guidance in the brightness of its morning,

    وَيَقْتَدِي بِتَبَلُّج إسْفَارِهِ،
    wa yaq-tadee bitabal-luji is-faarih
    38.follow the shining of its disclosure,

    وَيَسْتَصْبحُ بِمِصْباحِهِ،
    wa yas-tas'-bihoo bimis'-baah'ih
    39.acquire light from its lamp,

    وَلا يَلْتَمِسُ ألْهُدَى فِي غَيْرِهِ.
    wa laa yal-tamisul-hudaa fee ghay-rih
    40.and beg not guidance from any other!

    أللَّهُمَّ وَكَمَا نَصَبْتَ بِهِ مُحَمَّداً عَلَماً لِلدَّلالَةِ عَلَيْكَ،
    al-laahum-ma wa kamaa nas'ab-ta bihee muh'am-madana a'lamal-lild-dalaati a'lay-k
    41.O God, just as through it You hast set up Muhammad as a guidepost to point to You

    وَأَنْهَجْتَ بِآلِهِ سُبُلَ الرِّضَا إلَيْكَ.
    wa an-haj-ta bi aalihee subular-riz''aaa ilay-k
    42.and through his Household You hast made clear Your good pleasure's roads to You,

    فَصَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّد وَآلِهِ
    fas'al-li a'laa muh'am-madiw-wa aaalih
    43.so also bless Muhammad and his Household

    وَاجْعَلِ القُرْآنَ وَسِيلَةً لَنَا إلَى أَشْرَفِ مَنَازِلِ الْكَرَامَةِ،
    waj-a'lil-qur-aaan waseelatal-lanaaa ilaaa ash-rafi manaazilil-karaamah
    44.and make the Qur'an our mediation to the noblest stations of Your honour,

    وَسُلَّماً نَعْرُجُ فِيهِ إلَى مَحَلِّ السَّلامَةِ،
    wa sul-laman-naa'-ruju feeheee ilaa mah'al-lis-salaamah
    45.a ladder by which we may climb to the place of safety,

    وَسَبَباً نُجْزَى بِهِ النَّجاةَ فِي عَرْصَةِ الْقِيَامَةِ،
    wa sababan-nuj-zaa bihin-najaata fee a'r-s'atil-qeeaamah
    46.a cause for our being repaid with deliverance at the Plain of Resurrection,

    وَذَرِيعَةً نُقْدِمُ بِهَا عَلَى نَعِيْمِ دَارِ الْمُقَامَةِ.
    wa d'areea'tan-naq-dumu bihaa a'laa nae'emi daaril-muqaamah
    47.and a means whereby we may reach the bliss of the House of Permanence!

    أللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّد وَآلِهِ
    al-laahum-ma s'al-li a'laa muh'am-madiw-wa aaalih
    48.O God, bless Muhammad and his Household,

    وَاحْطُطْ بالْقُرْآنِ عَنَّا ثِقْلَ الأوْزَارِ،
    wah'-t'ut' bil-qur-aaani a'n-naa thiq-lal-aw-zaar
    49.lessen for us through the Qur'an the weight of heavy sins,

    وَهَبْ لَنَا حُسْنَ شَمَائِلِ الأَبْرَارِ
    wa hab lanaa h'us-na shamaaa-ilil-ab-raar
    50.give to us the excellent qualities of the pious,

    وَاقْفُ بِنَا آثَارَ الَّذِينَ قَامُوا لَكَ بِهِ
    waq-fu binaaa aaathaaral-lad'eena qaamoo laka biheee
    51.and make us follow the tracks of those who stood before You

    آنَاءَ اللَّيْلِ وَأَطْرَافَ النَّهَارِ
    aaanaaa-al-lay-li wa at'-raafan-nahaar
    52.in the watches of the night and the ends of the day,

    حَتَّى تُطَهِّرَنَا مِنْ كُلِّ دَنَس بِتَطْهِيرِهِ،
    h'at-taa tut'ah-hiranaa min kul-li danasim-bitat'-heerih
    53.such that You purifiest us from every defilement through its purification

    وَتَقْفُوَ بِنَا آثَارَ الَّذِينَ اسْتَضَـآءُوْا بِنُورِهِ،
    wa taq-fuwa binaaa aaathaaral-lad'eena as-taz''aaa-oo binoorih
    54.and makest us to follow the tracks of those who have taken illumination from its light

    وَلَمْ يُلْهِهِمُ الأَمَلُ عَنِ الْعَمَـل فَيَقْطَعَهُمْ بِخُدَعِ غُرُورِهِ.
    wa lam yul-hihimul-amalu a'nil-a'mali fayaq-t'aa'hum bikhudai' ghuroorih
    55.and whom expectation has not distracted from works, cutting them off through its delusions' deceptions!

    أَللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّد وَآلِهِ
    al-laahum-ma s'al-li a'laa muh'am-madiw-wa aaalih
    56.O God, bless Muhammad and his Household

    واجْعَلِ القُرْآنَ لنا فِي ظُلَمِ اللَّيالِي مُونِساً
    waj-a'lil-qur-aaana lanaa fee z'ulamil-layaalee moo-nisaa
    57.and appoint the Qur'an for us an intimate in the shadows of nights

    وَمِنْ نَزَغَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ وَخَطَرَاتِ الْوَسَاوِسِ حَارِساً،
    wa min-nazaghaatish-shay-t'aani wa khat'araatil-wasaawisi h'aarisaa
    58.and a guardian against the instigations of Satan and confusing thoughts,

    وَلأقْدَامِنَا عَنْ نَقْلِهَا إلَى الْمَعَاصِيْ حَابِساً،
    wa liaq-daaminaa a'n-naq-lihaaa ilaal-maa'as'ee h'aabisaa
    59.for our feet an obstruction from passing to acts of disobedience,

    وَلأِلْسِنَتِنَا عَنِ الْخَوْضِ فِي الباطِلِ مِنْ غَيْرِ مَا آفَة مُخْرِساً،
    wa lial-sinatinaa a'nil-khaw-z''i fil-baat'ili min ghay-ri maaa aaafatim-mukh-risaa
    60.for our tongues a silencer without blight preventing a plunge into falsehood,

    وَلِجَوَارِحِنَا عَنِ اقْتِرَافِ الآثامِ زَاجِراً،
    wa lijawaarih'inaa a'ni aq-tiraafil-aaathaami zaajiraa
    61.for our limbs a restrainer from committing sins,

    وَلِمَا طَوَتِ الغَفْلَةُ عَنَّا مِنْ تَصَفُّحِ الاعْتِبَارِ نَاشِراً
    wa limaa t'awatil-ghaf-latu a'n-naa min tas'af-fuh'ilia'-tibaari naashiraa
    62.and for the scrutiny of heedfulness rolled up in heedlessness an unroller,

    حَتَّى تُوصِلَ إلَى قُلُوبِنَا فَهْمَ عَجَائِبِهِ
    h'at-taa toos'ila ilaa quloobinaa fah-ma a'jaaa-ibihee
    63.such that You attachest to our hearts the understanding of the Qur'an's wonders

    وَزَوَاجِرَ أَمْثَـالِهِ الَّتِي ضَعُفَتِ الْجِبَالُ الرَّوَاسِي
    wa zawaajira am-thaalihil-latee z''au'fatil-jibaalur-rawaasee
    64.and its restraining similitudes which immovable mountains in all their solidity

    عَلَى صَلاَبَتِهَا عَنِ احْتِمَالِهِ.
    laa s'alaabatihaa a'ni ah'-timaalih
    65.were too weak to carry!



    Some worthy points:


    (1) Mohammad (s) preached everything pertaining to it.
    (2) Imams (a) are guardians over it
    (3) We shouldn't seek guidance other then it (showing hadiths should be returned to Quran)
    (4) If we do not act upon it's commands and hold on to it's light and testify to it's truth by heart and actions, it will darken and become doubted.


    The nature of Quran is that if you begin to be whispered by Iblis about it, don't seek to solve those issues sincerely but are looking for trouble, you will find trouble in it, even though there is none and it's a book that has no "slant/swerve" (See Surah Kahf).

    Yet it all that trouble humans make in their own heads, Ahlulbayt (a) words can cure all of that, if we given them a chance. They can remove doubts and manifests wonders of Quran.

    Part of the wonders, they can manifest, is by "connecting to you spiritually" when coming across certain verses.

    They after all are the visited household in the sky by Angels, and are the stars which are to be used as weapons against the devils.

    If a person is sincere, Ahlulbayt (a) will connect him and open doors of heaven/sky, and then everything will become clear.

    But to come with a spirit of denying unseen sign/proof of God, laughing at it all, mocking God's signs, even not researching anything about destroyed civilizations it points to and not reflecting seriously over any of it's arguments, yes, this Quran will be subjectively wrong to that person and a bunch of meaningless speech.
     
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  12. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    The whole Quran is like this with every subject. It's clear but not overly explicit yet not unclear either.

    So it's not just "women and how they are treated", but every subject.

    It's like this with it's most central repeated arguments as well.

    I've stated why past holy books were not like this (because it's better to be clear). But Quran is like this, because of it's plan as the final book to humanity.


    (1) Words of God should be utmost clear unless there is good reason otherwise. (we agree on this)
    (2) The only good reason possible is to guarantee safeguarding the words to allow enemies to misinterpret without needing to change it's text.
    (3) This reason doesn't apply to all holy books in the past except Quran, because none of them need to be guaranteed to be safeguarded, but rather the people can be given a chance to safeguard the clearest words, and so it's better to be clear and if they are going to change the message, they have to change the book (which takes more work).
    (4) The last book from God must be written a way that leaves room for misguided interpretation to guarantee safeguarding without going to extremes like forcing creation to accept it's message.

    So I'm showing you why Quran is not "utmost clear", but has a "clear enough" approach and a way that verses safeguard each other meaning and contextualize each other.
     
    #232 Link, Aug 8, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022
  13. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    May Peace be upon you

    Buraq (although I believe it) is found in the hadiths, not Quran.

    Buraq perhaps is a metaphor to what "desire" was created for, and the highest form of desire takes on a spiritual form that is an Angelic Animal.

    There is hadiths that Night Journey is ascension and spiritual, and that he ascended by his spirit.

    The same desire we have for sex, if we recall God's Light and spiritual pleasure, we can upgrade it and make it go beyond it's animal type and "evolve it".

    So when we "sacrifice" ritually an animal, it represents an act inward, we are "sacrificing the animal self" and inshallah it will become something higher. We trade lower pleasures for higher pleasures inwardly as we "kill" the physical animal outwardly.

    There is also the sword of God reality that Mohammad (s) is as well. So he is told "to connect (humans and Jinn) to God and sacrifice (ritually)". It's him and his Ahlulbayt (a) who are the foundation of all goodness, and so they know how to evolve the desire to something higher. Trust in their guidance, and we too will be given "Al-Buraq" or own version of it.

    Mohammad's (s) is the fastest traveler to God because he desires God the most.

    Imam Jaffar (a) says "slit the throat of caprice/desire when you slaughter (ritually the animal)" in Misbahal Shariah.

    Desire of pleasure with God and his spiritual sustenance is one side of "journeying to God".

    The same thing that makes you enjoy food in this world and sex, can be evolved to enjoy God's spiritual sustenance and enjoy the beauty and adornment of the lights of God.

    The Sunnah talked about Buraq, it's a reality, in the unseen sky world though. Angels and Sky/heaven world, they have to be described by metaphors, because their reality transcends normal dimensions we are use to.
     
  14. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    The “unseen sky world” isn’t a reality though,that’s why l think that so called holy books are books totally dependent on faith not facts.
     
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  15. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    Salam

    Yet to those who experience the unseen light, it's a fact.
     
  16. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    That can’t be verified,that’s the problem.
     
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  17. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    It can't be verified through testimony of others. But unseen whether Satanic or Angelic, from Iblis or from Imam, is a reality most of the world experiences.

    Magic whether in the world of darkness and illusion or is at the level of God's sustenance from his heaven/sky and is the "truth" from him, is experienced by most of the world.

    This doesn't prove to a person not experiencing it to be true - it's true we can all be "deluded" and "experiencing" illusion, for all you know.

    But if you go to sorcerers or followers of Imams (a), astray or guided in unseen world, they all have proof for it, whether it be Genies/Jinn or miracles done by the power of holy spirit/Imam.

    Whether to polytheists and their gods or God's chosen servants, unseen reality can be experienced directly.

    If you want to stay in your little bubble imagining everyone is deluded, that's up to you.
     
  18. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Deluded nah,mostly people are born into a belief system,Abrahmics Hindus whatever,I was born and baptised into Christianity but not strict so could question everything,personally proselytising an old religion is up against it nowadays,people have so much more freedom to think outside of the box imo.
     
  19. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    Hindu gods I experienced some of them while non-Muslim and saw some of their "sky reality". But it's not the "truth", but has aspects of light and darkness in my view.

    It's not that Hindus don't experience unseen, it's that they aren't holding to the proofs of God and are to open to unseen entities with incredible powers. Their gods have powers but no where near that of God's chosen Angels and chosen humans.

    But in my view, Hindu gods believe they are guided and probably not directly from Iblis. They seemed more peaceful then western gods of sorcerers and Kahens that I experienced.

    They aren't like the western sorcerers and soothsayers "gods" and interfere in politics like crazy and cause corruption on earth while being oblivious to their evil ways. I believe the planners and polytheists and sorcerers and kahens here, their ultimate god is Iblis himself.

    I was very close to becoming a Kahen myself, but alhamdulilah God saved me through Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) and their family (a) from that.
     
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