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Featured Poll: Signs of eloquence of Quran

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Link, Aug 2, 2022 at 1:55 PM.

?
  1. Perfectly calculated words that can only be from God

    18.8%
  2. Beyond human calculated words, but possibly from misguided higher intelligent beings

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Capable of a human that knows eloquence at a very high level that very little reach

    6.3%
  4. One human can't do it but it's capable of many humans who have advance knowledge of eloquence

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Perfectly calculated words capable of only God or his exalted chosen ones

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. At a level capable of any human as it's not eloquent at all

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. At a level many humans can do, as it's eloquent, but not to a level only a few can reach

    31.3%
  8. I don't know

    43.8%
  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    My latest post in the thread where I'm trying to show eloquence of Quran and signs of it being from God in that respect.

    I wrote:

    Salam

    What does this have to do with eloquence? One way to define eloquence, is to talk about words picked in a way that are very well placed with respect to one another. That out of the words picked as there are many ways to say the same thing, the choice of words are very well chosen.

    Now with respect to the reward verses, I believe I have not only shown they are well chosen (eloquent) with respect to the Surahs, and that they fit there more then others, but that they are perfectly chosen words. That these words with respect to the Surahs they are in, are perfectly placed words.

    Now humans are not going to do this. They are not going to repeat same message of verses, but paraphrased differently or with additions, that are perfectly suited exactly where they are.

    Keep in mind that Surahs were dynamically built over time, and that the Quran surahs were not revealed in one go, this is another major sign.

    To be this precise and calculative with picking these words is a major sign. Out of the reward verses, one stands unique however, and that's 42:23.

    Yet as it's explicit it's the family of Mohammad (s), the Surah more then any other Surah, emphasizes Islam is not about Mohammad (s) or his family (a) but they are chosen means for God's Welayah on his creation and he has a unique Welayah. He sent Mohammad (s) because of this Welayah he has. He sent Messengers in the past because of this Welayah.

    He distinguishes who he wants for himself and guides who he wishes.

    The Surah is so calculatedly related to the issue "it's about Mohammad (s) but not really, it's about God Welayah through Mohammad (S)".

    And this is why when it mentions the Al-Qurba in 42:23 it does so after mentioned "faith and good actions" and after mentions "whoever earns goodness, we will increase them therein in it's beauty" and emphasizing "indeed God is forgiving, thankful", but what is most eloquent is the verse right after with all this...

    أَمْ يَقُولُونَ افْتَرَىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا ۖ فَإِنْ يَشَإِ اللَّهُ يَخْتِمْ عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ ۗ وَيَمْحُ اللَّهُ الْبَاطِلَ وَيُحِقُّ الْحَقَّ بِكَلِمَاتِهِ ۚ إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ | Do they say, ‘He has fabricated a lie against Allah’? If so, should Allah wish He would set a seal on your heart, and Allah will efface the falsehood and confirm the truth with His words. Indeed He knows well what is in the breasts. | Ash-Shura : 24


    This shows, if not Mohammad (s), someone else, if not his Ahlulbayt (a), then another Ahlulbayt (a), and so don't make it personal about Mohammad (s).

    It's about God and his Welayat. We see this theme in another Surahs, for example, Surah Furqan emphasizes on Mohammad (s) being the way to God and the reward he is accused of seeking to be in reality for who wants to, to take path to their Lord.

    But this Surah has the most "it's about God, so don't make it personal".

    It also has "there is no argument between us and you, to you is your actions and to us is our actions", and so to let the truth prevail, and let everyone present their religion and not make it personal.

    Of course, God distinguishes for himself who he wishes, and Al-Qurba in 42:23 are obviously the center point of the message, and are the means to God, but it's not about them, because if not them, and Mohammad (S) lied, then a different Al-Qurba would be the object.

    Al-Qurba is also stated in a way, that no matter what time and age, there is always an Al-Qurba to love and earn goodness through and are means to God and his signs, and way to believe in God's light and do good.

    The ending of Surah Shura also very eloquent....it talks about God guiding through the spirit he inspired/revealed from his command, and that it's a light who he guides who he wants, but then says "...and indeed you guide to a straight path"

    And we read in Surah Fatiha "the path of those who you favored upon..." but here we read "the path of God..." and ends with "alas to God return the affairs"

    This too good. Too good for humans to calculate and place. And 42:23 stands unique and yet is explained by all the reward verses which are all perfectly placed and related to their Surahs. They interpret each other and woven each other to imply one meaning.

    This way of Quranic interpreting itself and relating it's repeated themes to one another, is not a sign of boring repetition, but actually, it's a sign of calculating words to perfection from God. And nothing is repeated in vain.

    It's very calculative repetition in a way, that things get woven together and interpret one another. We see for example in repeating the reward and how it's calculated to be in a Surah perfectly, is a miracle. Everything so precisely placed.

    We also saw the names of Prophets and Messengers and how they appear and which order, in the Surahs, they appear, is also very precise and perfectly chosen words.

    Again, eloquence can be said to measure the degree of how words are chosen out of all words. I believe I've objectively shown a lot of examples of how words are not just exalted and high in eloquence, that they are very good placement of words and hence eloquent, but they are precisely chosen in a subtle way humans do not know how to choose,

    Keeping in mind Quran was dynamically revealed with events and the Sunnah, this perfectly placed words should be seen as a miracle for sure.

    ------

    My comment. Pick the best option for you. I realize some options you can select more then once, but just pick the best one.
     
  2. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Unknown Member
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    I've read the Qur'an in English. I've been told it loses some of its beauty in translation. Do you still want me to vote?
     
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  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    You can vote "I don't know", if you simply don't know. :)

    Yes it looses a lot, because Quran is musical perfectly chosen words too. That the way they flow and sound and placed, is also, perfect.

    But I can't show that. You can study musical notes and study Quran in this respect, and perhaps you can pioneer this aspect for us if you wish.

    However, I've shown very little of the signs and features pointing it being from God, yet very significant amount still.

    For example, the reward verses are perfectly sound beautiful in the Surahs they are in, I have not shown that, but I've shown meaning wise - each reward verse is perfectly placed in the Surah they belong (there is a few Surahs I've yet to show, but will be).

    I've shown calculated words of how names of Prophets appear exactly where they are and precisely where they are. For example, the two places Elyas (a) appears.

    Now it of course rhymes the best as well, with the way it is phrased, but I'm showing the meaning side of choosing these words. That aspect of eloquence.

    So you can conclude per my view, from what I've shown, that Quran is too precisely chosen and perfectly placed words to be from humans, and is rather from God.
     
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  4. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Unknown Member
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    Soundwise, it must lose something. It is simply read when one examines it in English.

    Where does the 'call to prayer'(as it is sung) come from?
     
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  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The way Sunnah compliments Quran is important. Adan is from the Sunnah.

    However, this is going off course from the intent of this thread.
     
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  6. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Interesting comments.

    Then from what you offer in what is quoted, I see there can be another Welayat (Covernant) that can appoint a further line of Ahlulbayt. As Allah does as Allah so Wills.

    Regards Tony
     
  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    By the way, Quran shows that first people said about Quran "if we wished, we can do it", but as time went along and signs became more apparent "it's a poet" (few), and later, "a people assisted him in it", and then finally "rather it's a sorcerer or possessed" believing he either attained higher intelligence through magic to do this and went beyond "human" capability and became something magical in mind or that it was by "Jinn" that possessed him that were higher intelligence revealing it to him.

    So they started with option: "we can do the same if we wish, it's nothing but tales of the ancients" to "he must of transcended his humanity as it's magical" or "Higher beings are revealing it to him and he is possessed by them and misguided that they are Angels when they are misguiding force" and not able to pick which one of these are true, but that it's super beyond human.

    The Quran also has a whole philosophy of why it's not words of devils and misguided Jinn, and that "they are from the hearing far removed" and can't make use of the light of it, but I'm interested if any of our neopagan or left handed spiritual people will vote this option.
     
  8. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Great thing is, the Quran guides our souls, so we can not direct where Allah will take any conversation.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Yes, in theory, this is possible, and not only possible, but something God consistently did. Yet, as day of judgment is coming surely, he can also put an end to Nubuwa and seal the issue of Ahlulbayts being appointed, with Mohammad (s) and his family (a).

    This is not about Bahai faith and Quran though, so let's not try to sneak that in again and again.
     
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  10. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Given the amount of ad-hominem that flies everytime the subject of this thread is often and repeatedly dragged up and someone raises a critical viewpoint of it, I recommend simply re-reading the original thread here The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge?

    Particularly from post #120 onwards with a special mention of post #197 since both posts clearly refute the present OP.

    In my opinion.
     
    #10 danieldemol, Aug 2, 2022 at 2:50 PM
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022 at 2:55 PM
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  11. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Whether the Quran claims this, is of course irrelevant to whether or not it historically happened that way.

    Post #197 of the thread: The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge?

    Specifically refutes this Quranic claim rather nicely.

    In my opinion.
     
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  12. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    Post #197 needs a topic in itself. So you can present one and I'll be there. We can compare and analyze the literatures "that have met the Quran challenge", and we can see if it has or not.

    As for measuring eloquence, authors often see it themselves, as they write through their lives and study other writing, and study features of writing, and write themselves, they become better at choosing words.

    Message is important, but eloquence is how you phrase it, and usually I find the best is a middle ground between subtleness and explicitness. Too explicit and it's overwhelming boring, too subtle, and becomes too flowery and unbearable.

    The thing is with my thread, I showed examples of how words are phrased in a way that is very calculative and I would argue perfectly placed words.

    There's still a lot to show. When we get to the smaller Surahs (I think I only did Surah Inshirah and Fatiha in the thread), we can see precise concise speech that speaks volumes of precision and wisdom.

    In theory, eloquence is how you phrase things. A person might say same message but very boring or overly loud or overly explicit or too flowery.

    For example, if I would vote for Bahai literature in holy texts, I would say the fail in that they are not even meeting eloquence let alone beyond human eloquence:

    (1) They are too explicit
    (2) The parables are done overly explicit and too condensed of them
    (3) Very flowery in speech to the extent it's a headache

    They are hard to read. I've read a lot of it, but they are not like Quranic ease of remembering and not boring recitation.

    So we can compare the two, and say Quran towers above it. But you can even compare Bahai scriptures to other writing of humans, or even of Kahen channeling from Jinn, and you will see Bahai scriptures are not eloquent.
     
  13. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Actually post #197 does not even mention Baha'i scriptures lol.

    But in attacking the Baha'i scripture you have revealed that your criteria are entirely subjective, for it is up to each individual to decide where the balance is between too literal and too flowery. There is no objective criteria to distinguish it.

    In my opinion.
     
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  14. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    @Link
    Since you are evidently not going to read them to refresh your memory I shall save you the trouble and replay them below.

    Both posts I mentioned are central to the topic of your OP.

    To make them easier to read i will provide them in two separate posts below.

    In my opinion.
     
  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The Bahai scriptures when they are flowery, are way too much. When explicit, too explicit. And there parables are condensed too many right one after another in a way that for anyone who knows eloquence a bit, will want to puke from how chaotic and uncalculated the speech is.

    More over, they have a very Whiny tone. He is whining too much.

    Quran even when Mohammad (S) had just Khadija (a) and Ali (a) doesn't whine, but speaks of might.

    I'm comparing. Because there is ways of analyzing speech.

    Eloquence is a form of beauty. Even more beautiful that body type. When combined with goodness, it takes even a higher form. When combine with truthfulness and sincerity, it can be used as a proof of the speaker.

    Another way to prove Quran is to say, liars can't talk that way. And to me, truthful speak higher ways. For example, if you see sermons of Nahjul balagha, mankind can't speak like that in general. Only Prophets and exalted chosen ones can.

    Speech can be a sign, and you can see truthful tone in it, that liars and deceivers are far removed from that sharp eloquent sincere way of speaking.

    It can be said the Gospels have a very truthful sincere tone and way of emphasizing Imamate and Welayat.

    Quran has a different style from Gospels and too me is more provable from God and bigger sign, but Gospels are too sincere and truthful to be fabricated. By truthful, I mean it how it speaks, speaks sincerity to a very high degree.
     
  16. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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  17. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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  18. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    All of the above is subjective opinion.

    There are many people who are familiar with eloquence who do not puke when they read Baha'i writings. Also many who do not puke when they read the writings of Shakespeare etc.

    So which is best - that is subjective opinion.

    And does being best at something make you divine? If so dont forget His Holiness Eric Clapton.

    In my opinion.
     
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  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I know your posts relate, but my OP also properly responds to both your posts. Quran is too perfect in placement of words. I've shown a bit of that in the "signs of eloquence" thread with examples.

    For example, the "reward" "accusation" verses. I've shown so far from the examples I related to the Surahs they are in, it's perfectly calculated and suited in that Surah. You can't switch any of the "reward accusation" verses, with another, and make it better placed.

    Not only better placed, but if has additions, it's perfectly suited. Then the center purpose of all of them 42:23, and how that's calculated. The Surah all perfectly related to it in a precise perfect way from start to end.

    Aside from that, we see things like the exact two places Dul-Kifl appears is perfected calculated. Same with Alyasa. Same with Elyas. Elyas is particularly so perfect, to me, precisely placed in two Surahs. I've made the claim that precision of these words are too perfect.

    We also saw particularly how Surah Fatiha has 7 phrases that are so calculated with respect to Quran and that the more you learn of Quran, the more you learn of the 7 calculated phrases we repeat in Salah.

    The way Fatiha is related to respect to the rest of Quran, is itself a huge indication. You can't pick any words to replace Fatiha better then it. You can't say "disappear Fatiha, and I replace it with some equal to it in it's place".

    Impossible.

    Anyways, I'm not going to repeat all I've shown. But I've shown precise calculated perfect speech in my view, too precisely perfectly placed words for humans to do.
     
  20. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I brought up Bahai example. It claims writing is proof from God and beyond our capability. It's a claim trying to mimic Islam's claim. Yet, it's not even at the level of eloquence. I've mentioned why. If you want I can show examples too, how it fails in eloquence. I can provide detailed thread show examples of chaotic uncalculated speech and it's too much to even begin to compare with Quran. It has no comparison.

    Yet to you, it's simply the claim.

    The claim does not make it true. The claim is just an invitation to study it and see if it's beyond human capability or not.

    I believe with how much hostility the unseen realm (dark magic) and seen realm has towards Quran, if this challenge is seriously met, we would have some serious testimony about it.

    As for your examples (Musalyma, etc), we can look at their literature and compare. If you don't want to start a thread about, I can. I didn't reply to it in the other thread, because it was saying challenge is met. Not that the challenge itself is not a reasonable challenge.

    You have to decide between these two in the first place.

    Is God capable of providing a sign?

    If so, in what form? Just physical power miracles or is a literature possible something God can use a proof?

    If you say it's impossible, then no matter what level of eloquence and how precise, you are going to say, so what?

    But if you believe highest literature and incapability of bringing like it, and that God provide proof through literature, then we can have a meaningful dialogue of how Quran towers.

    I think even if you are stuck on one, you should just skip to seeing examples of eloquence of Quran, because for all you know, God can speak in a way far above humans and you can detect some of that eloquence and see how it towers above in precise perfectly placed words.
     
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