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POLL FOR CHRISTIANS

Discussion in 'Christianity in General DIR' started by KenS, May 24, 2020.

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  1. MORMONS

    9 vote(s)
    56.3%
  2. JW

    11 vote(s)
    68.8%
  3. CATHOLICS

    14 vote(s)
    87.5%
  4. BAPTISTS

    14 vote(s)
    87.5%
  5. GREEK ORTHODOX

    14 vote(s)
    87.5%
  6. ORIENTAL ORTHODOXY

    14 vote(s)
    87.5%
  7. SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS

    12 vote(s)
    75.0%
  8. ANGLICANS

    14 vote(s)
    87.5%
  9. JESUS ONLY OR NON-TRINITARIAN

    9 vote(s)
    56.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Personally I only recognize groups that profess the Nicene Creed as sharing the same faith.
     
  2. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    My sentiment is the same as Frank's. If you don't accept the Apostles' and Nicene creeds, it make no sense to me to say that we share the same faith.
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    That kind of sucks for Jesus' Apostles, doesn't it?
     
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  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    True. And depending upon which characteristics you use to make your determination, there's going to be a shift in which groups you include in your little club.

    Mark 9:38-40 answers the question the way Jesus probably would. When John said, "Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us," Jesus answered him by saying, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part."

    I know that as a Latter-day Saint, I am definitely not against Jesus. I couldn't be more for Him.
     
  5. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Just to be clear, I don't identify with any organized denomination. So, the "you" in your saying, "which groups you include in your little club," is not speaking about me, but other "yous".

    I was simply saying it depends who is determining that, and on what basis. Traditionalists look to those who follow the lineage and view outsiders with suspicion. That's typically what you see.

    The only thing I caution about using this verse, is that just watch some of these fraudulent miracle workers, like Benny Hinn and whatnot, and try to make that verse say he's on the up and up. There is that other verse about those who do miracles in his name, but are not looked upon so favorably,

    Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’​

    So there is that to bear in mind.

    While I could never wrap my mind around Mormon theology and find it anything usable to me, I won't slight others who can find God in any system of belief. It's not the beliefs that matter, but whether faith bears fruit or not.

    If you ask me which verse says if someone follows Jesus or not, that is those who "do the will of the Father", then this is the standard. "By their fruits you shall know them". Not their doctrines, theologies, or beliefs.

    Those who try to make it about correct beliefs and doctrines, fit that other verse better about straining at gnats while swallowing camels. They strain, because it distracts them from actual spiritual growth, which requires humility and confession.
     
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  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I apologize if that's how I came across. I should have said, "Depending upon which characteristics one uses to make his determination, there's going to be a shift in which groups he includes in his little club." I wasn't directing my remarks to you at all.

    I agree. And all I was saying was that as the basis for determination changes, so does the result. Should people be excluded over their not basing their understanding of God on how the 4th and 5th-century creeds define Him? If so, then anybody who lived prior to when these creeds were established is not a Christian. Should people be excluded over which books they consider canonical? If so, then the Catholics and the Protestants cannot both be Christians? I could go on and on and on.

    Agreed. But I suppose they could still be considered Christian, even if their behavior doesn't reflect well on the religion.

    I am 100% in agreement with you on this.

    And on this.
     
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  7. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    I make no distinction between the faith held by the Apostles and the faith held by the Catholic Church. The creeds are but enunciations of that faith.
     
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  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I beg to differ. If the creeds were merely "enunciations of that faith," there would be no need for them, as the Bible does a perfectly adequate job of doing that itself.
     
  9. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    If we can't even agree on the nature of God, how is it the same religion?
     
  10. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    No, it doesn't. Sola scriptura is a Protestant idea. The Bible points to certain doctrines, but doesn't spell them out. And if you really believed the Bible alone was enough, you wouldn't accept the Book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures as also being sacred writ.
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    So if two denominations have to be in perfect agreement in order to both be Christian, how do you go about determining who's the real deal and who's the fake?

    I don't know about you, but I believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the Abrahamic God, despite the fact that we don't agree on His nature.
     
  12. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    I didn't say anything about being considered to be Christian. I'm talking about being the same religion. I just don't view groups who don't profess the Nicene Creed as being of the same religion as me, regardless of how they identify. They are welcome to view themselves as Christians.
     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I have never believed in the idea of Sola Scriptura. Mormonism and Catholicism have that in common. Catholicism also accepts sacred tradition as valid, while Mormonism also accepts continuing revelation as being valid. The nature of God, however, is not the only issue on which there are disagreements between various denominations of Christianity. But since it's the nature of God you and I are talking about, let's just stick to that for the time being. In what respect do you believe the Bible falls short when it comes to explaining the nature of God? Why are the creeds needed to clarify what the Bible teaches?
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I guess it all gets down to is how you want to define "religion." You seem to be defining it as I would define "denomination." No, I don't believe I am of the same denomination as you. I am a Mormon; you are a Catholic. We both belong, at least in my opinion, to the Christian religion.
     
  15. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Creeds are a quick summary of the Faith. The Bible doesn't spell out what is essential doctrine. It lays the foundation, but can be bewildering to a newcomer. Also, you have to realize that for the vast majority of Christian history, most people were illiterate. So they needed things like creeds in order to understand what the religion was in the first place since they couldn't read the Bible.
     
  16. Vouthon

    Vouthon Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
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    **A gentle reminder that DIRs are not debate sub-forums. Debates between members of specified groups should be posted in Same Faith Debates.**

    I feel the air on this thread is turning a little 'debater-ish' and combative. By all means state your position/view/opinion folks and in turn ask for respectful clarification but please refrain from arguments with the intent of convincing other members that their view(s) is/are 'wrong'.
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    So that's the qualifying issue, in your opinion. Protestants believe in the Nicene Creed. Most of them also believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, and in John Calvin's TULIP theology (i.e. Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints). Do you have the same faith as they do?
     
  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    :rolleyes: This leaves me speechless. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There is only one thing wrong with that conclusion as far as I can see scripturally speaking....

    1 Corinthians 1:10....
    "10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment." (NASB)

    And when Jesus comes as judge, he reinforces that statement......

    Matthew 7:21-23...
    "21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" (NASB)

    These are the ones Jesus said acknowledge him as their "Lord" and yet when they offer him proof of their discipleship...."did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’"...his response is a stinging rejection. Not only does he not recognize those ones as his own...but he says he "never" knew them....."never" means "not ever". What are we to make of that?

    In his parable of the "wheat and the weeds" Jesus said that a counterfeit form of Christianity, sown by the devil, would infiltrate the field in which he had sown the wheat..."while men were sleeping". He said rather than to uproot them, he told them to allow both to grow together until the harvest time, because only then would a clear distinction be clearly visible.

    The weeds in this parable were 'bearded darnel' which in the middle east is called "wheat's evil twin" in that it mimics the wheat so exactly that farmers cannot tell until the harvest time which is which. They then go out and harvest the weeds and burn them, then they gather the wheat. That makes this illustration particularly appropriate, given that so many conflicting 'denominations' all claim to be "Christians". So Jesus said that he will look at what people "do" rather than what they "say".

    At the harvest time the true wheat will look and act nothing like the weeds.

    So given all that....I do not believe that all who identify as "Christians" will make the final cut.....only those "doing the will of the Father" will be accepted into the kingdom...and Jesus already said that they are "few".....the "many" are on the broad road to destruction.....(Matthew 7:13-14) That is a sobering thought.

    There cannot be many versions of the truth....just one...and one channel dispensing that truth.....we have to find them. (Matthew 24:45)
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It's got nothing to do with being magnanimous...it has more to do with being honest...not popular. Isn't that what Jesus was known for?
     
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