1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Poll: Divine Immutability

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Exaltist Ethan, Jan 25, 2023.

?
  1. Yes, God does change

    15.0%
  2. Some of God changes, some of God stays the same

    15.0%
  3. No, God does not change

    50.0%
  4. God does not exist anyways

    20.0%
  1. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,159
    Ratings:
    +1,085
    Religion:
    Earthseed
    As someone who is part of Earthseed and its website literally being God is Change it's hard for me to wrap my head around a God that doesn't change. Of course, it is standard Christian practice that God doesn't change, and has what they call 'divine immutability'. I think all pantheists and syntheists, the balk that compromises the spiritual transhumanists, would argue that something that cannot change cannot be God, since everything in the known Universe is in a place that is above 0K, and thus retains some amount of energy.

    And then of course, there's the agnostics, that believe we can't know whether God changes or not, and the atheists and anti-theists, who think this question literally makes no sense and is preposterous.

    But what do you think? Does God have divine immutability, or divine mutability? I would argue that God is very mutable under most circumstances, because we're developing divine attributes as humans and our understanding throughout the years has become wiser, and more Godlike. Remember, I don't believe that God is simply nature, but rather, what nature is becoming. And since nature is in a constant state of change, and due to us that change has risen its self-awareness and divinity, that God is more liken to being the divine mutable rather than the divine immutable.

    What does the Bible have to say about God's own divine immutability? If God is immutable does that mean he never changes his mind? What about all the times in the Bible that he does?

    Let us know your opinion of divine immutability below. :)
     
    #1 Exaltist Ethan, Jan 25, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    40,776
    Ratings:
    +13,209
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I believe that God's Attributes and God's Essence are immutable, meaning they do not change over time.
    However, God's Messages to humanity change over time.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,159
    Ratings:
    +1,085
    Religion:
    Earthseed
    I am starting to realize that divine immutability doesn't mean God doesn't change but rather his divinity doesn't change. Which actually makes a lot of sense. If God is God then God should be God whether it was the God of the past, God of the present or God of the future. You could replace that word with "The Omniverse" and I would agree with that statement, but small parts of the very fabric of reality does change and we're proof of that. But I think what you're trying to say is that God does not change, but people do. Hence the different messages.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    7,292
    Ratings:
    +7,369
    Religion:
    Spiritual but not religious
    I don't know if God changes.

    But conceptions of God change.

    In my opinion
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,485
    Ratings:
    +455
    Religion:
    None
    The quality of God being a timeless and eternal divine God never changes.

    However, God created the physical universe within the spiritual universe, himself, God. So both are of God, are God. For God is the living universes, and the universes are the living God, one within the other, both making up the vast and all powerful GOD. The physical universe was designed to grow and evolve. And he created all of the souls (spiritual entities) to grow and evolve. So God grows and evolves.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  6. The Sum of Awe

    The Sum of Awe Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    16,069
    Ratings:
    +3,448
    Religion:
    Pan(en)theist - Hard Determinist
    God is, so no.

    Time is also a creation of God, as is space, and both are requirements for change.

    However I’d say God IS change. So I suppose God does not change in the same way water isn’t wet.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,159
    Ratings:
    +1,085
    Religion:
    Earthseed
    [​IMG]
    Maybe I need to rethink my answer...
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. The Sum of Awe

    The Sum of Awe Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    16,069
    Ratings:
    +3,448
    Religion:
    Pan(en)theist - Hard Determinist
    It’s all a matter of perspective. I understand why you would say God does change, on the more immanent level.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    22,146
    Ratings:
    +17,247
    Religion:
    Druidry
    If gods do not change, they have no way of meaningfully interacting with the world or being relevant in our lives.

    Moving from one place to another - that's a change.
    Communicating with another being - that's a change.

    It's all change. All of it. All the time, constantly.

    It's how reality works, at least within the confines of the perpetual currents of now-time and now-space. That is to say, as humans we perceive time and space as passing rather than fixed. Pause time and space, and that's the only way to get no change. These words could not be typed, the post not submitted. There would be no perception, no movement, no thing. The paradox is that, taken as fixed moments in time, nothing changes. The precise moment of the now does not change. But we perceive flow. Thus, always change. No escaping.
     
  10. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,659
    Ratings:
    +13,870
    Religion:
    none

    I don't believe in God, but if I did then I don't think it would be possible for him to change.

    For him to change would either require him to be spontaneously whimsical or there to be an unanticipated external stimulus that prompts change.

    I don't think these really make sense for God (although they are quite common for small-g gods), and so he could cause things to change this would not be the same as changing himself.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    9,052
    Ratings:
    +2,020
    Religion:
    Christian
    If God changed He would not be perfect.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    4,404
    Ratings:
    +3,952
    Religion:
    Christian
    From a Christian perspective, God changed when The Word became an incarnate man
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  13. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    5,268
    Ratings:
    +1,060
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    I think God doesn't change because:

    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, nor turning shadow.
    James 1:17
     
  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    9,052
    Ratings:
    +2,020
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes and no. Same God and same character, so no change there.
    It needs to be considered just what is being spoken about when it says God does not change.

    Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    Mal 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.


     
  15. Rival

    Rival Ecclesia Gentium
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    25,914
    Ratings:
    +42,002
    Religion:
    Other
    This isn't true. Christianity affirms the immutibility and impassibility of God.
     
  16. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    4,404
    Ratings:
    +3,952
    Religion:
    Christian
    Perhaps Jesus is dynamically immutible?

    i.e. he switches between two conditions (e.g. The Word and man) but in such a way that he is only limited to a fixed set of conditions? Thus he does change, but within non-changing, fixed limitations?
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    9,052
    Ratings:
    +2,020
    Religion:
    Christian
    God does not change but I disagree that God is impassible.
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    17,396
    Ratings:
    +10,467
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    All except God is subject to change
     
  19. Soandso

    Soandso Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2022
    Messages:
    219
    Ratings:
    +318
    Religion:
    Agnostic Atheist
    I'm an atheist, but I feel that ideas of gods evolve and change endlessly as the cultures that uphold and remember gods evolve and change endlessly. The god of Abraham and Isaac is different than the god of the New Testament is different than the god of the Holy Roman Empire is different than the god of the Spanish Inquisition is different than the god of modern North America etc etc

    Some people say god never changes. That's not how things look from the outside
     
Loading...