• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Poll: Divine Immutability

Does God Change?


  • Total voters
    20

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
As someone who is part of Earthseed and its website literally being God is Change it's hard for me to wrap my head around a God that doesn't change. Of course, it is standard Christian practice that God doesn't change, and has what they call 'divine immutability'. I think all pantheists and syntheists, the balk that compromises the spiritual transhumanists, would argue that something that cannot change cannot be God, since everything in the known Universe is in a place that is above 0K, and thus retains some amount of energy.

And then of course, there's the agnostics, that believe we can't know whether God changes or not, and the atheists and anti-theists, who think this question literally makes no sense and is preposterous.

But what do you think? Does God have divine immutability, or divine mutability? I would argue that God is very mutable under most circumstances, because we're developing divine attributes as humans and our understanding throughout the years has become wiser, and more Godlike. Remember, I don't believe that God is simply nature, but rather, what nature is becoming. And since nature is in a constant state of change, and due to us that change has risen its self-awareness and divinity, that God is more liken to being the divine mutable rather than the divine immutable.

What does the Bible have to say about God's own divine immutability? If God is immutable does that mean he never changes his mind? What about all the times in the Bible that he does?

Let us know your opinion of divine immutability below. :)
 
Last edited:

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
I believe that God's Attributes and God's Essence are immutable, meaning they do not change over time.
However, God's Messages to humanity change over time.

I am starting to realize that divine immutability doesn't mean God doesn't change but rather his divinity doesn't change. Which actually makes a lot of sense. If God is God then God should be God whether it was the God of the past, God of the present or God of the future. You could replace that word with "The Omniverse" and I would agree with that statement, but small parts of the very fabric of reality does change and we're proof of that. But I think what you're trying to say is that God does not change, but people do. Hence the different messages.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
As someone who is part of Earthseed and its website literally being God is Change it's hard for me to wrap my head around a God that doesn't change. Of course, it is standard Christian practice that God doesn't change, and has what they call 'divine immutability'. I think all pantheists and syntheists, the balk that compromises the spiritual transhumanists, would argue that something that cannot change cannot be God, since everything in the known Universe is in a place that is above 0K, and thus retains some amount of energy.

And then of course, there's the agnostics, that believe we can't know whether God changes or not, and the atheists and anti-theists, who think this question literally makes no sense and is preposterous.

But what do you think? Does God have divine immutability, or divine mutability? I would argue that God is very mutable under most circumstances, because we're developing divine attributes as humans and our understanding throughout the years has become wiser, and more Godlike. Remember, I don't believe that God is simply nature, but rather, what nature is becoming. And since nature is in a constant state of change, and due to us that change has risen its self-awareness and divinity, that God is more liken to being the divine mutable rather than the divine immutable.

What does the Bible have to say about God's own divine immutability? If God is immutable does that mean he never changes his mind? What about all the times in the Bible that he does?

Let us know your opinion of divine immutability below. :)

The quality of God being a timeless and eternal divine God never changes.

However, God created the physical universe within the spiritual universe, himself, God. So both are of God, are God. For God is the living universes, and the universes are the living God, one within the other, both making up the vast and all powerful GOD. The physical universe was designed to grow and evolve. And he created all of the souls (spiritual entities) to grow and evolve. So God grows and evolves.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
God is, so no.

Time is also a creation of God, as is space, and both are requirements for change.

However I’d say God IS change. So I suppose God does not change in the same way water isn’t wet.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
God is, so no.

Time is also a creation of God, as is space, and both are requirements for change.

However I’d say God IS change. So I suppose God does not change in the same way water isn’t wet.
74615-John-F-Kennedy-Quote-Everything-changes-but-change-itself.jpg

Maybe I need to rethink my answer...
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
If gods do not change, they have no way of meaningfully interacting with the world or being relevant in our lives.

Moving from one place to another - that's a change.
Communicating with another being - that's a change.

It's all change. All of it. All the time, constantly.

It's how reality works, at least within the confines of the perpetual currents of now-time and now-space. That is to say, as humans we perceive time and space as passing rather than fixed. Pause time and space, and that's the only way to get no change. These words could not be typed, the post not submitted. There would be no perception, no movement, no thing. The paradox is that, taken as fixed moments in time, nothing changes. The precise moment of the now does not change. But we perceive flow. Thus, always change. No escaping.
 
As someone who is part of Earthseed and its website literally being God is Change it's hard for me to wrap my head around a God that doesn't change. Of course, it is standard Christian practice that God doesn't change, and has what they call 'divine immutability'. I think all pantheists and syntheists, the balk that compromises the spiritual transhumanists, would argue that something that cannot change cannot be God, since everything in the known Universe is in a place that is above 0K, and thus retains some amount of energy.

And then of course, there's the agnostics, that believe we can't know whether God changes or not, and the atheists and anti-theists, who think this question literally makes no sense and is preposterous.

But what do you think? Does God have divine immutability, or divine mutability? I would argue that God is very mutable under most circumstances, because we're developing divine attributes as humans and our understanding throughout the years has become wiser, and more Godlike. Remember, I don't believe that God is simply nature, but rather, what nature is becoming. And since nature is in a constant state of change, and due to us that change has risen its self-awareness and divinity, that God is more liken to being the divine mutable rather than the divine immutable.

What does the Bible have to say about God's own divine immutability? If God is immutable does that mean he never changes his mind? What about all the times in the Bible that he does?

Let us know your opinion of divine immutability below. :)


I don't believe in God, but if I did then I don't think it would be possible for him to change.

For him to change would either require him to be spontaneously whimsical or there to be an unanticipated external stimulus that prompts change.

I don't think these really make sense for God (although they are quite common for small-g gods), and so he could cause things to change this would not be the same as changing himself.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
As someone who is part of Earthseed and its website literally being God is Change it's hard for me to wrap my head around a God that doesn't change. Of course, it is standard Christian practice that God doesn't change, and has what they call 'divine immutability'. I think all pantheists and syntheists, the balk that compromises the spiritual transhumanists, would argue that something that cannot change cannot be God, since everything in the known Universe is in a place that is above 0K, and thus retains some amount of energy.

And then of course, there's the agnostics, that believe we can't know whether God changes or not, and the atheists and anti-theists, who think this question literally makes no sense and is preposterous.

But what do you think? Does God have divine immutability, or divine mutability? I would argue that God is very mutable under most circumstances, because we're developing divine attributes as humans and our understanding throughout the years has become wiser, and more Godlike. Remember, I don't believe that God is simply nature, but rather, what nature is becoming. And since nature is in a constant state of change, and due to us that change has risen its self-awareness and divinity, that God is more liken to being the divine mutable rather than the divine immutable.

What does the Bible have to say about God's own divine immutability? If God is immutable does that mean he never changes his mind? What about all the times in the Bible that he does?

Let us know your opinion of divine immutability below. :)

If God changed He would not be perfect.
 

Eddi

Panentheist and Psychedelic Cat
Premium Member
From a Christian perspective, God changed when The Word became an incarnate man
 

1213

Well-Known Member
As someone who is part of Earthseed and its website literally being God is Change it's hard for me to wrap my head around a God that doesn't change. ...

I think God doesn't change because:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, nor turning shadow.
James 1:17
 

Eddi

Panentheist and Psychedelic Cat
Premium Member
This isn't true. Christianity affirms the immutibility and impassibility of God.
Perhaps Jesus is dynamically immutible?

i.e. he switches between two conditions (e.g. The Word and man) but in such a way that he is only limited to a fixed set of conditions? Thus he does change, but within non-changing, fixed limitations?
 

Soandso

Well-Known Member
I'm an atheist, but I feel that ideas of gods evolve and change endlessly as the cultures that uphold and remember gods evolve and change endlessly. The god of Abraham and Isaac is different than the god of the New Testament is different than the god of the Holy Roman Empire is different than the god of the Spanish Inquisition is different than the god of modern North America etc etc

Some people say god never changes. That's not how things look from the outside
 
Top