Poll: Churchill Statue

[Mock Turtle]

Statues to the past help us remember history in the context of the actual times. Those who wish these artifacts to be removed try to engage in revisionist history. They try to judge the past, by the present, and thereby alter history in an irrational way. This changing of the past allows the fools to repeat the mistakes of the past.

A good example is Socialism This has not worked but have resulted in some of the worse human atrocities in history. The left has tried to revise this past and pretend socialism is now new and improved so they can make the same mistakes. The leaders seem to enjoy the control they have over the ignorant.

In the USA, the left wants to remove statues to Confederate War heroes. This is part of a larger revisionist history scam The problem is a war hero is a solider, while a good solider, who gets a monument follows orders, These orders come from his political leaders. These politicians and orders for these soldiers who got statues, came from the Democrat party, which was the party of slavery.

Picture if the Nazi party had survived after WW2, like the Democrats did in the USA, and was still one of the two top political parties in Germany. Removing statues would be a way to alter past so they can rise again. The Democrats of today do not wish anyone to make that reality connection of their past, so they are trying to hide it.

We need to get rid of the Democrat party and leave the statue to those who were ordered to engage in Democrat party atrocities. This way we remember the past ands not repeat it.

That sounds a bit silly to me. Why not leave all the Nazi concentration camps as they were (the ones that survived), except it would be rather offensive I would suspect to large numbers of people. I know a few survive (camps, that is).

 

[oldbadger]

I assume that your attempted humor had something to do with me being Jewish and even more to do with you being ignorance of Egypt's history In any event, we're talking about getting rid of the statue, not the War Rooms.

Well, I got a couple of 'likes' for that post, so it was enjoyed by others.
Ignorance of history? You think the Egyptians were the pinnacle of humanity or something?

No, the post was not to do with your religion, it was to try and pop an idea within concerning Churchill, actually. If we dump Churchill's statue outside Parliament then we might as well take sledge hammers to every effigy here.

If we hadn't had that old dog back then, Hitler would have nailed us, and every disabled person, gypsy, mason, JW, Jew, black, etc would have been in grave danger. Not too bad a record!

 

[England my lionheart]

Perhaps the main thing about this, apart from the slavery issue, is that many of those so acclaimed were often done on the distorted perspectives of their time - such that why would we want to continue such? We do live in dynamic societies, so should expect changing values to influence how we deal with such things.

I wonder though how would they deal with the statue of Aristotle who thought slavery was necessary,like I said earlier,a simple plaque with information of the good or bad or both that person did is,imo,enough.

 

[England my lionheart]

Perhaps the main thing about this, apart from the slavery issue, is that many of those so acclaimed were often done on the distorted perspectives of their time - such that why would we want to continue such? We do live in dynamic societies, so should expect changing values to influence how we deal with such things.

I don't think Churchill had a distorted perspective of his time but others further back in time I would agree.

 

[halbhh]

There is a big statue of Churchill, outside the UK parliament

It has recently been defaced by Black Lives Matter protesters, who claim he was racist

There have been calls to have it removed

Question: Should the statue of Churchill outside the UK parliament be removed, or should we keep it?

For me: We should keep it, because on balance he did more good than bad. Also, he was of his time and cannot be judged by today's standards. And it's not just colonialism which is bad about him, he was also very tyrannical towards the Welsh miners (and the working class in general) before he became PM. Yet as war-time PM he was very successful at leading a war-effort that was in the best interest of all sections of society. And in the best interests of the entire world too.

All people do wrongs ('sin'). Not one is truly righteous on their own.

I think Churchill is one of the better human leaders, but....

All statuary of leaders as saviors is slightly offensive to our best urge to the true good. They all fall short.

So, it's not only Churchill statutes that should be relegated to a history museum, but all statutes of leaders as saviors. Even figures like Washington, who ranks among the best overall.

 

[Koldo]

Statues are the start but where does it end?

Much wants more!

What exactly do you think is going to happen next?

 

[Notanumber]

Sure. What's wrong with trying to make the world better?

We are not going to make a better world by the use of anarchy and mayhem.

 

[Notanumber]

What exactly do you think is going to happen next?

Try watching this and reading the comments to get an idea.

 

[Koldo]

Try watching this and reading the comments to get an idea.

I generally don't watch videos when they are sent as an answer but since it was only 5 min long I went ahead with it.

The reason as to why I generally don't watch videos is that I am never certain on whether I understand to what extent one agrees with it.

From your video I got that there are two possible concerns here:

1) That people get to destroy (history) books too. I don't think it is reasonable to assume this is going to happen though. If anything, it is in the best interest of those that are opposed to those statues, due to the racism they enshrine, for the history not to be forgotten.

2) That people decide more and more to pressure corporations into taking down content for arbitrary reasons. Well... Conservative citizens have been doing this for ages, at least around here. So, did it only become a matter of concern when the other groups started doing the same?....

 

[Notanumber]

As they say here – Nigel Farage’s crime was to compare the Taliban to BLM.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That is not a good thing.

The English were imbued with a sense of superiority for generations.
Much like Some Americans seem to have today.
It is very hard to swim against the tide..
Especially when there was no reason to do so.

Churchill was very well educated and even better connected. He was well aware of the long fight to abolish slavery on both sides of the Atlantic. But he was also perfectly aware that they were no more accepted as equals than they had ever been.

However they were seen quite differently in the UK than in America . Here at least they are seen as human. And a very few were able to rise on their own merits. But most were seen as a sort of permanent but junior working class. But the skin colour was not a problem. During the war American troops had to be warned by their officers than British civilians would treat both black and white troops equally and that they would likely be invited into their homes together. And have to mix in cinemas and dance halls.
At that time it caused quite a problem.
That was especially true when British and American troops had to work together. As an American soldier could easily find himself out ranked by a British senior black NCO. Or even officer.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

As they say here – Nigel Farage’s crime was to compare the Taliban to BLM.

Not many care what Farage thinks. He is a newer was.. however if he pops his head over the racial fence, some one is very likely to take a shy at it.

If any one is stupid enough to compare any group to the Taliban thy are likely to become a target. So no surprises there.

 

[Notanumber]

Not many care what Farage thinks. He is a newer was.. however if he pops his head over the racial fence, some one is very likely to take a shy at it.

If any one is stupid enough to compare any group to the Taliban thy are likely to become a target. So no surprises there.

You may not, but many do care what Nigel thinks.

Not all black people agree with BLM and ANTIFA and those people do not like being taken for granted and used as pawns.

How long did it take the Taliban or ISIS to start destroying history?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You may not, but many do care what Nigel thinks.

Not all black people agree with BLM and ANTIFA and those people do not like being taken for granted and used as pawns.

How long did it take the Taliban or ISIS to start destroying history?

There is no connection with the Taliban or Isis so that is a non sequitur.

 

[Notanumber]

There is no connection with the Taliban or Isis so that is a non sequitur.

They used different methods to achieve the same aim.

Taliban blow apart 2,000 years of Buddhist history

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We are not going to make a better world by the use of anarchy and mayhem.

Because the status quo was working so well, eh?

You may not support their methods, but that doesn't imply anarchy or mayhem.

 

[Notanumber]

Many black people are proud to be British.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Many black people are proud to be British.

And I'm proud to be Canadian, but I still think we could do with a few less John A. McDonald statues.

Pride in one's country <> acquiescence to one's country's racist history.

The people throwing statues in the river are presumably proud of their country, too. If they didn't care, they wouldn't be taking action.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

They used different methods to achieve the same aim.

Taliban blow apart 2,000 years of Buddhist history

Removing statues of evil men, is very different to destroying remains of past gods and religions.

 

[Augustus]

We have plenty of statues for poets and composers over here in Vienna. They don't get to sit on their high horse crushing peasants/uppity natives/labor movements though, which may disappoint some.

In truth, most statues have nothing to do with colonialism which is not really surprising.

There are thousands of statues of philosophers, scientists, inventors, writers, artists, poets, musicians, religious clerics, philanthropists, etc.

While such things are hard to quantify, a rational analysis would suggest there aren't going to be all that many countries which have contributed more in a number of these fields.

So if you take out colonialism, there's still key contributions to the industrial revolution and the development of modern science, the abolition of the slave trade, antibiotics, TV, telephone, telegraph, WWW, trains, jet engines, electric engines, Newton, Darwin, Hume, Locke, Bacon, Brunel, Watt, Faraday, Babbage, Jenner, Shakespeare, Dickens, etc., etc., etc.

List of British innovations and discoveries - Wikipedia