Please Explain: "Gay Christian"

[Gjallarhorn]

Gay Christian, alcoholic Christian, Conservative Christian...many different ways of getting your personal beliefs to correspond with something that really shouldn't work.

 

[Ingledsva]

I am gay, I am atheist, but I grew up in a "devout Christian home".

I understand that behavior is a choice; so I certainly understand that a celibate gay can be a Christian.

What I do not understand is the idea that a gay who is engaging in same sex relationships could, or would, identify themselves as Christian. It is a paradox to me.

We are well aware of the scriptures used to condemn homosexuality. The Old Testament, of course, condemned it. In the New Testament, Paul the Apostle called it "unnatural", made references towards homosexuality in the destruction of Sodom, and made it quite clear that "blah blah blah blah would not inherit the kingdom of Heaven", with homosexuality being on that list of blah blah blahs.

So: Gay Christians, specifically (it feels odd to type that; I feel like I'm typing an oxy moron), with the tenets of Christianity apparently so condemning of homosexuality, why do you find yourself drawn to it and how to you reconcile the apparent Christian doctrines that condemns us for what we are?

There is actually NO homosexual reference in the Sodom story. The sins are actually listed, - no homosexuality listed. The same word they try to translate as homosexual sex, - is used by God several verses before, where he says he is going down to check out Sodom. I'm guessing he wasn't going down for gay sex!


As to Romans 1 - it isn't about homosexuals either, - it is to the Christians in Rome whom are falling back into Pagan Sacred Sex Worship.


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain (mataioo is actually IDOLATROUS) in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and serpents.



The Qadesh and Qadeshah played the role of God and Goddess in the creation story. They had Sacred Sex in the Temple, with the common people.


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:


~~ ~ NOTE: the people in 24 that dishonor their bodies, are the people WHO worship the Act of Creation in 25! Religious Sexuality! ~~~


Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of Deity into a lie, and worship and render religious homage to the "Act of Creation" more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto their vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

2937 ktisis usually translated "creature" in 25, is actually "Act of Creation"!


These are the KNOWN acts of Sacred Temple SEX. They had "Sacred Creation Sex" with all who came, and also with animals in some cases, as listed elsewhere in the Bible.



*

 

[columbus]

Gay Christian, alcoholic Christian, Conservative Christian...many different ways of getting your personal beliefs to correspond with something that really shouldn't work.

Isn't that the point to believing in ancient religions?
Nobody is now an expert on what God meant, so they can believe whatever they want and attribute it to God?

Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm not so sure they disagree with him as much as you think. I looked through some of your links, and I noticed that a lot of arguments hinge on the idea that there are other passages in the Bible that seem to contradict a strict interpretation of those "clobber verses"; in that respect, I agree: there's plenty in the Bible that suggests that LGBT people should be loved and accepted. The difference between them and me is that I don't necessarily think that this should dictate how we interpret those "clobber verses". The books of the Bible were written by different people at different times, so I see no reason to assume that they're all communicating a single cohesive message.

Short version: I still think that there's anti-LGBT material in the Bible. However, I certainly don't think that the balance of pro- and anti-LGBT material justifies an anti-gay position.

That's a fair view. I personally think those verses belong to a culture that's long dead and don't have much of anything to do with people today, especially LGBT people as we know them, specifically Paul's verses. Whatever he was talking about was something pertaining to that specific culture. He was commenting on some practices that were going on in the areas of the church he was writing to. It's like the verses about him telling a certain church that women should be silent or his comments about slavery. Those verses don't apply to us today.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not necessarily forced homosexuality, but forced sex in general.


Arsenokoitai is found used with both men and women.


For instance when Zeus kidnaps and rapes Ganymede.


"...Some even do it with their own mothers, and others with foster sisters or goddaughters. In fact, many men even commit the sin of arsenokoitia with their wives.”

John the Faster, Penitential, about AD 575.


I found a reference to arsenokoitai as Temple prostitutes (who were quite often sold to the temple, or givin/dedicated by a family,) but more specifically to the Greek custom of an older "HETEROSEXUAL" man, an erastes taking an eromanos, an adolescent boy as a student. The man teachs hunting, warfare, and adult male customs to the boy, and has SEX with him! Greek males also used subordinate males for sex. Also the fact that "HETEROSEXUAL" males in both the Greek and Hebrew worlds could keep male slaves and use them for sex!

In this case it would mean a "HETEROSEXUAL male dominating/using/raping usually younger or subordinate males/slaves/temple prostitutes"


It seems clear that arsenokoites does not refer to mutually respecting gay relationships, but to a powerful aggressor subjugating a weaker individual, whether in the context of culture, rape, or slave trading, or temple prostitutes.


A few books on the subject.


The Construction of Homosexuality. Greenberg, David.
Greek Homosexuality. Dover, Kenneth.
Martin, Dale. Arsenokoites and malakos: Meanings and Consequences. Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality, Robert Brawley.



*

There is actually NO homosexual reference in the Sodom story. The sins are actually listed, - no homosexuality listed. The same word they try to translate as homosexual sex, - is used by God several verses before, where he says he is going down to check out Sodom. I'm guessing he wasn't going down for gay sex!


As to Romans 1 - it isn't about homosexuals either, - it is to the Christians in Rome whom are falling back into Pagan Sacred Sex Worship.


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain (mataioo is actually IDOLATROUS) in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and serpents.



The Qadesh and Qadeshah played the role of God and Goddess in the creation story. They had Sacred Sex in the Temple, with the common people.


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:


~~ ~ NOTE: the people in 24 that dishonor their bodies, are the people WHO worship the Act of Creation in 25! Religious Sexuality! ~~~


Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of Deity into a lie, and worship and render religious homage to the "Act of Creation" more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto their vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

2937 ktisis usually translated "creature" in 25, is actually "Act of Creation"!


These are the KNOWN acts of Sacred Temple SEX. They had "Sacred Creation Sex" with all who came, and also with animals in some cases, as listed elsewhere in the Bible.



*

Right on. Well said. :clap

 

[Muffled]

I am gay, I am atheist, but I grew up in a "devout Christian home".

I understand that behavior is a choice; so I certainly understand that a celibate gay can be a Christian.

What I do not understand is the idea that a gay who is engaging in same sex relationships could, or would, identify themselves as Christian. It is a paradox to me.

We are well aware of the scriptures used to condemn homosexuality. The Old Testament, of course, condemned it. In the New Testament, Paul the Apostle called it "unnatural", made references towards homosexuality in the destruction of Sodom, and made it quite clear that "blah blah blah blah would not inherit the kingdom of Heaven", with homosexuality being on that list of blah blah blahs.

So: Gay Christians, specifically (it feels odd to type that; I feel like I'm typing an oxy moron), with the tenets of Christianity apparently so condemning of homosexuality, why do you find yourself drawn to it and how to you reconcile the apparent Christian doctrines that condemns us for what we are?

I beleive there are two problems: 1. People wish to deceive themselves into thinking that everthing is okey dokey 2. apostate churches are leading gays astray by making them think the scripture is meaningless and therefore they are ok.

 

[Muffled]

I'm a queer Christian. I did some research into the subject and came to the conclusion that those verses don't necessarily say what many people think they say and some of them have been mistranslated and removed from their cultural context. It's really not that difficult. But I can understand how it could be difficult when you've been persecuted due to it before. Queerness in Christianity has existed since the very start.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I believe you should pray about this.

 

[Muffled]

Gay Christian, alcoholic Christian, Conservative Christian...many different ways of getting your personal beliefs to correspond with something that really shouldn't work.

I believe everyone is a sinner in one form or another looking for Jesus to remove their sin. For some that is easier than for others but the concept is that a person believes it is a sin and wishes to be saved from it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe everyone is a sinner in one form or another looking for Jesus to remove their sin. For some that is easier than for others but the concept is that a person believes it is a sin and wishes to be saved from it.

Indeed. For instance, I believe most runaway slaves had trouble with the concept that they had sinned by rejecting the authority of their masters.

 

[allright]

There's a reason Jesus said only a few people will be saved.

 

[RabbiO]

Hey

Same is for Leviticus 18:22.

It says: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Actually, it doesn't.

 

[Jainarayan]

Actually, it doesn't.

I always said that isn't what it means. I don't know what it does mean, but I know it isn't that. I've read that Semitic languages, being tri-consonantal can sometimes be ambiguous because of the use of diacritics to mark vowels. Is that correct? Can you give the actual translation? It would be another arrow in my quiver. *rubs hands together with fiendish glee*

 

[idav]

Gay Christian, alcoholic Christian, Conservative Christian...many different ways of getting your personal beliefs to correspond with something that really shouldn't work.

Soooo......a sinning christian is a 'no go'. OK well doesn' t that make it a little tough.

 

[RabbiO]

I always said that isn't what it means. I don't know what it does mean, but I know it isn't that. I've read that Semitic languages, being tri-consonantal can sometimes be ambiguous because of the use of diacritics to mark vowels. Is that correct? Can you give the actual translation? It would be another arrow in my quiver. *rubs hands together with fiendish glee*

I'll get to that, but I should also mention that in Leviticus chapter 20 it does not say, in relevant part, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman..."

 

[Jainarayan]

Thanks, I always believed it was mistranslated and/or taken out of context.

 

[Ingledsva]

I beleive there are two problems: 1. People wish to deceive themselves into thinking that everthing is okey dokey 2. apostate churches are leading gays astray by making them think the scripture is meaningless and therefore they are ok.

Why would there be any difference between those born heterosexual, and those born Gay?


First most of these verses aren't actually about homosexuals, but rather Sacred Sex.

Second, why would these churches be apostate?


You are not under Tanakh law, and Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.


One would think he would have said something if he thought it was a problem.



*

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Soooo......a sinning christian is a 'no go'. OK well doesn' t that make it a little tough.

A sinning Christian is a given (it encourages repeat business). An unrepentant sinning Christian is just masochism.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I believe you should pray about this.

I've done my soul-searching about it. You go pray about it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I beleive there are two problems: 1. People wish to deceive themselves into thinking that everthing is okey dokey 2. apostate churches are leading gays astray by making them think the scripture is meaningless and therefore they are ok.

LGBT Christians and allied Christians aren't saying the scripture is meaningless. We're studying the actual meanings of those verses rather than taking them at face value and using them as an excuse to be bigots.

 

[sojourner]

There's a reason Jesus said only a few people will be saved.

Right! Because, obviously, God's grace through Christ isn't sufficient for everyone. God's love simply cannot overcome human stubbornness, so Christ's sacrifice was meaningless.


Great! That's good news, indeed!