1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Please demonstrate that the creation of our universe was driven by intellect.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by NulliuSINverba, Dec 1, 2014.

  1. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    19,031
    Ratings:
    +6,398
    Religion:
    deist
    I'll bet you kept failing your comprehension tests at school. :)
    It was your OP, and you could only stretch your brainy bits as far as one single Universe. That's a bit like the mindsets of flat-Earthers in the last century.
    So it was all yours. You're lovely! I like you! :D

    Oh Gawd ...... there's this idiot who props up the bar in the local and declares 'Nobody can sell me anything!' And then the barmaid says, 'Another, Charlie?' and he buys it! You remind me of him just a little. :)

    You're lovely...... on that basis, why don't you shift it to this solar system, or just the USA!
    Look.... I like you so I'll be patient with you. You have to start at the beginning, and since we don't actually know where the beginning is, we're going to have a teensy weensy bit of trouble with all this demonstration of certitude.
     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,058
    Ratings:
    +11,920
    Religion:
    Atheist
    1) Not at all. In fact, as an agnostic I don't put any credence in the Bible at all.
    2) Not "merely" at all. Any assertion, no matter what it is, amounts to a claim.

    Only to the extent that it is irrational to make a claim one didn't think is true (factual)---any attempt to deceive aside.

    Please note that in post #30 I put the term "fact" in quotation marks, indicating that it its truth is immaterial. If you made the statement in earnest then I would assume you believed it to be a fact---The truth of the matter aside---wheels can indeed turn without a drive shaft---is irrelevant. In your mind your assertion (claim) was the truth---a fact.


    You're ignoring the nature of your own request here.

    "Please demonstrate that the creation of our universe was driven by intellect."

    Obviously no one is going to present some table-top exhibition, so the only reasonable interpretation of "demonstrate" is
    noun
    1. the act or circumstance of proving or being proved conclusively, as by reasoning or a show of evidence

    which is what I've attempted to do; use reason to show that the Bible qualifies as a source for an answer to your challenge; The Bible states that . . . . . .

    It's irrelevant. As I say, I don't buy the Bibles explanation; however, that doesn't make it any less an explanation--- the reason--a claim--a"fact" as presented by its authors.

    Nope it doesn't, but that doesn't mean it's not an explanation--- the reason--a claim--a"fact" as presented by its authors.

    What I'd do is irrelevant.
     
  3. Rick O'Shez

    Rick O'Shez Irishman bouncing off walls

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2013
    Messages:
    13,049
    Ratings:
    +4,903
    Religion:
    Guinness
    It might have been space aliens, but I don't know.
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,105
    Ratings:
    +14,164
    Religion:
    Judaism
    His username is 'Levite' and his religion is listed as Jewish. You might have noticed this were you not so enamored by your own pomposity.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    19,031
    Ratings:
    +6,398
    Religion:
    deist
    I reckon that our universe forms a tiny part of a single atom within a molecule which lies within the trachea of a softwood pine leg in a table. There is a bloke sitting at this table and getting merrily canned on a form of lager, wondering what the hell it's all about, and the OP wants me to offer a serious presentation, offering a demonstration of all this...........
    ......... not asking much, then....... :)



    Mrs B thinks old-B should come back to bed.
     
  6. NulliuSINverba

    NulliuSINverba Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2014
    Messages:
    798
    Ratings:
    +136
    Religion:
    None
    You're sorely off-topic, my friend. To say nothing of "totally presumptuous." You'll notice that I went out of my way to leave room for the fact that he wasn't a Christian. Observe:

    I await your next totally essential, off-topic non-answer with bated breath.
     
  7. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    16,939
    Ratings:
    +7,480
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    Actually I was just pointing out it is easy to issue a challenge that you already know is impossible to answer. Where's the risk in that?

    Often assumed in such arguments, just wanted to find out whether it was being assumed here.

    Hence the assumption.

    My actions, choices together with everything else in the universe work together to cause the next moment to exist. Certainly my actions and choices as well as your actions and choice play its part, however small in the creation of the next moment. You have reason to not believe this?

    Should we at least examine the possibility? If we can determine there is no such possibility there's no need to ask the question.

    What are you offering? I think that is the biggest problem. The inability to satisfactorily demonstrate an alternative. If could be shown they'd stop speculating.

    Ok, but is rather obvious nobody knows. Even people who claim authority for the Bible, they still just make stuff up to fill in the gaps. Like I said, pretty much a no risk challenge.

    Perhaps, try living with a bit more danger. Issue a challenge which could actually be beaten.

    That's why I make statements or claims, to see if someone has a better explanation
    .
    You did? Great, that's a bit impressive. They learned something. Did you learn anything? Rare I get to learn something new but it's priceless when it happens.

    Sorry, yes I attacked the question hoping some, if they didn't already see it, understood the impossibility of beating the challenge.

    Unless you think Skwim proved me wrong. Maybe he did.
     
  8. NulliuSINverba

    NulliuSINverba Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2014
    Messages:
    798
    Ratings:
    +136
    Religion:
    None
    That's an assumption on your part. Several in fact. And you'd have lost that reading comprehension bet by several furlongs. Depend upon it.

    Setting all that aside, I see no reason whatsoever to include other universes in this discussion. Would you like to offer some practical reasons as to why we ought to include them? Isn't this universe enough? Did I miss the bit in the Bible where God created other universes?

    Except that advocates of the round Earth were't arguing that there were multiple earths involved.

    File Under: Analogies, Bogus.

    ...

    Besides, if you're going to claim that there are other universe, don't you think it'd be fair to ask you to demonstrate that they exist? Beyond being theoretical? Beyond being matters of conjecture? Why not tell us all something meaningful about these other universes? Please.

    Allow me to offer some conjecture about these Other Universes: No matter how different the conditions might be for life to occur in some other universe (and it seems best to grant that they might be totally different from how they are in this universe), I like to imagine the inhabitants of said universe standing around (on their neon green tripod legs) saying (out of one of their mouths) something akin to:

    "But look at our methane atmosphere! If it were only .00000000001 different, life here on Planet Qxyffp could not exist ... therefore there must be a God!"

    Are you just here to regale us with irrelevant anecdotes or are you ever going to get around to speaking to the topic? Because at this point, never mind the universe. I'm not even convinced that intellect is driving your side of the conversation.

    If you'd like to start your own thread called "Please demonstrate that intelligence was behind the creation of the United States" you are welcome to do so. It'd probably be a very lively discussion.

    Rest assured, if I were to ever darken its doorway, I'd be sure to post something with a little more heft than the snide, off-topic drivel you've posted thus far.

    Don't bother if you can't offer something intelligent. You're wasting my time ... and perhaps that of anyone who's bothering to read the thread (in this or any universe).
     
  9. NulliuSINverba

    NulliuSINverba Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2014
    Messages:
    798
    Ratings:
    +136
    Religion:
    None
    So you're conceding that it is impossible to demonstrate that the universe was created by an intellect? Are you also saying that it's only possible make the claim?

    Thanks. What's that leave the scoreboard at? If we count no other response aside from yours, it looks like:

    Absolutely Certain It Was Intellect - 0
    Who Knows - 1

    See: Solipsism.

    It almost sounds as if you suspect that The Next Moment wouldn't happen if you croaked before your next addition to this thread.

    I see no reason whatsoever to believe that the flow of time is in any way dependent on anything you or I do. Of course, I'm operating under the assumption that there's more to reality than myself.

    If you're making the assertion that our actions create "the next moment" then you're obliged to demonstrate that it is so.

    I'd say that you're officially on the clock, but what you're talking about is probably best left to another thread.

    People who've stated that the universe was created by intellect are speculating? Hmmm. I guess a speculator's claim is a speculator's claim ... even if it turns out to be iron pyrite?

    Meanwhile, I will maintain that the act of simply asking people to substantiate their belief that the universe was created by intelligence places no burden whatsoever on me to produce an alternative.

    You're preaching to the choir, my friend.

    Thank you. Now try convincing them of that.

    If their Biblically-Inspired Belief System® can't stand up to a little scrutiny ... what good is it?

    Look. No one was soliciting your approval for the general line of inquiry, and if you can't offer a response, don't. No one is forcing you to participate in this conversation (especially if you feel that the ID side is utterly untenable).

    Start your own thread. By all means.
     
  10. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    4,439
    Ratings:
    +3,148
    Religion:
    atheist
    Oh, but the veracity of the statement IS material. IF the engineering book had claimed that a little gremlin in the engine makes the wheels on a car turn, I can easily dismiss this source as false since the accuracy of the claim can be verified.
     
  11. NulliuSINverba

    NulliuSINverba Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2014
    Messages:
    798
    Ratings:
    +136
    Religion:
    None
    So you're citing evidence that you don't believe in?

    So "A = A" is only a claim?

    Does it follow that it is irrational to offer evidence that you don't think is true? Shall we rewind?

    So you've offered up what you feel is evidence, but have already conceded that you don't buy it. Certainly, you must be prepared to accept that no one else will buy it either, correct?

    ...

    1.) Is it irrational to offer up the claim as evidence to support the claim?
    2.) If only this thread were asking for evidence that anyone had ever made the claim that the universe was created by an intellect in writing. I think you'd have an airtight case.

    ...

    You believe that the truth value of a fact is immaterial? Please tell me I've misunderstood you.


    I didn't
    think it would be necessary to make any stipulations as to the form of the demonstration. But please ... carry on.


    So we've got:

    1.) Reasoning.
    2.) A show of evidence.

    Are you saying that offering up evidence upon which you place no credence counts in either case?

    Again. I must ask you: How rational is it to cite evidence upon which you place zero credence?

    Again, the Bible is the claim that the universe was created by intelligence. Do you honestly feel it's sufficient to (re-)cite the claim as evidence for itself? Please explain to me how the following scenario isn't a fair distillation of what your entire argument boils down to:

    Salesman: Madam, this little bottle of pills will cure whatever ails you.
    Homeowner: Prove it.
    Salesman: Well. See here on the side of the bottle where it says "This little bottle of pills will cure whatever ails you?"

    Has the salesman actually utilized reason? Has he in fact cited any evidence?

    Or is he merely re-stating the claim?

    You really ought to be selling stuff door-to-door. Seriously.

    Your argument is suffocating in its own froth.

    One of ways in which we differ is that I do not use the words "claim" and "fact" interchangeably.

    To this point, all you've done is cite the Bible's claim that the universe was created by intelligence as evidence that the universe was created by intelligence. That proves zilch ... and it earns you this thread's inaugural
    [​IMG]
    stamp.

    Thanks for playing.
     
  12. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,058
    Ratings:
    +11,920
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Now you've taken the issue to another level. Recall that the OP only asked "Please demonstrate that the creation of our universe was driven by intellect." And I did just that. That the evidence is not poor does not invalidate that fact of my demonstration.

    If someone is asked to submit evidence that little green men came to Earth from Mars and they hold up a Mars candy bar as evidence doesn't mean they failed to produce evidence, because they did: the candy bar. The evidence just happens to be asinine, which also applies to the Bible as evidence. As I told NulliuSINverba in post 42, "I don't buy the Bible's explanation; however, that doesn't make it any less an explanation--- the reason--a claim--a"fact" as presented by its authors. So, of course my demonstration was bad, but it was a demonstration none the less.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Viker

    Viker Caucasian detritus

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,750
    Ratings:
    +242
    Religion:
    Life n death
    Since we're technically operating under the premise in the title. This is easy. You called it a creation which would already imply a creative or intelligent/intellectual force behind its origin. Any thing you know of ever created itself?
     
  14. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    4,439
    Ratings:
    +3,148
    Religion:
    atheist
    Except that if the 'evidence is poor' then it really hasn't demonstrated anything, so I'd say that you failed to do just that.
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,105
    Ratings:
    +14,164
    Religion:
    Judaism
    <yawn>
    Way past due for the ignore list.​
    </yawn>
     
  16. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,058
    Ratings:
    +11,920
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Yup! Which really should come as a surprise. After all I told you in post 42, "as an agnostic I don't put any credence in the Bible at all."

    Not if it's for diversion. I was merely taking the Christian position to see how far I could go in defending it. However, this was seriously sidetracked when I had to explain to you the meanings and relationships of "claim," "reason," and "fact." and how they relate to explanation in a demonstration. Sooo . . . I never did get to defend the Christian position. C'est la vie [​IMG]
     
  17. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,058
    Ratings:
    +11,920
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Sorry, that was a typo. It should have read "That the evidence is poor does . . . ."
     
  18. NulliuSINverba

    NulliuSINverba Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2014
    Messages:
    798
    Ratings:
    +136
    Religion:
    None
    The Answer? Not very.
     
  19. NulliuSINverba

    NulliuSINverba Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2014
    Messages:
    798
    Ratings:
    +136
    Religion:
    None
    No. You repeated the claim.

    Seriously? You'd offer a Mars bar as evidence that extraterrestrials have visited the Earth?

    And by extension, the argument behind it.

    ...

     
  20. NulliuSINverba

    NulliuSINverba Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2014
    Messages:
    798
    Ratings:
    +136
    Religion:
    None
    Good riddance. It isn't as though you were bringing anything substantive to the discussion anyway.

    Absolutely Certain It Was Intellect - 0
    Who Knows - 2
     
Loading...