Plato's Allegory Of The Cave?

[Eddi]

Do you believe we humans are in the same predicament as the men in the cave in Plato's Allegory Of The Cave?

To quote Wikipedia:

…a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from objects passing in front of a fire behind them and give names to these shadows. The shadows are the prisoners’ reality, but are not accurate representations of the real world.
​

I do!

I believe that our reality is a computer simulation

And that it is a fairly crude simulation too but that we don't know any better!

To me, Plato's cave scenario resembles the truth of our condition to a very great degree

All we have ever known and can ever know are only shadows - that bear only a very minimal resemblance to anything that exists outside The Simulation

Were we to ever exit The Simulation our puny simulated minds would be totally blown

 

[MikeF]

...

And that it is a fairly crude simulation too but that we don't know any better!
...
All we have ever known and can ever know are only shadows - that bear only a very minimal resemblance to anything that exists outside The Simulation

I would ask: If we do not know any better and all we can ever know is the "Simulation" , how specifically do you know and are aware of the "Simulation"? By definition, you can't know.

 

[Eddi]

I would ask: If we do not know any better and all we can ever know is the "Simulation" , how specifically do you know and are aware of the "Simulation"? By definition, you can't know.

The Simulation communicates with me

 

[MikeF]

The Simulation communicates with me

Lucky you?

 

[Eddi]

Lucky you?

I feel honoured that it chose me

BTW, your signature - "the totality of reality is not yet known and may never be known" sounds a bit like Plato's Cave to me?

 

[Polymath257]

There is a sense in which we are all only looking at the shadows provided by our senses. They give only an imperfect representation of the reality that is there.

But unlike in the parable of the cave, there is no way to directly access what is there. We can *only* work through our senses and our minds and both have deep flaws.

That said, we can used these flawed resources to get information that goes way beyond the shadows we see: we can know about radio, ultrasound, atoms, and distant galaxies. All of those are way beyond what we can detect by our senses alone.

 

[Truth in love]

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:

The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,

Hath had elsewhere its setting,

And cometh from afar:

Not in entire forgetfulness,

And not in utter nakedness,

But trailing clouds of glory do we come

From God, who is our home:

Heaven lies about us in our infancy!

Shades of the prison-house begin to close

Upon the growing Boy,

But he beholds the light, and whence it flows,

He sees it in his joy;

The Youth, who daily farther from the east

Must travel, still is Nature’s Priest,

And by the vision splendid

Is on his way attended;

At length the Man perceives it die away,

And fade into the light of common day.

~ William Wordsworth

Far from the only person to share this view, but one of the best poems on it I’ve found.

 

[MikeF]

I feel honoured that it chose me

BTW, your signature - "the totality of reality is not yet known and may never be known" sounds a bit like Plato's Cave to me?

A bit, but not quite. Plato is saying what we experience is an illusion and we only perceive actual reality through reason.

My view is that what we experience is reality, it is just that our perspective is limited or restricted. By expanding our perspective, (simplistically, for example, leaving a mountain valley and climbing a peak to see what is beyond the mountains), we are able to experience more of reality and begin to develop a more complete picture of reality.

One metaphor I find useful is to think of our core communal knowledge in terms of a sphere, with the interior of the sphere representing reality that is experienced and confidently known. The boundary of the sphere represents those areas in which we have some information, but not enough to resolve a clear picture, or understanding. This boundary layer can vary in thickness, and becomes less distinct as one travels to the outer edge. Outside the boundary is black and represents all that is completely unknown.

If we look at humanities core communal knowledge throughout history, we can see how the core of what is know, what is inside the sphere, has grown and expanded throughout history. Our core of knowledge is much greater than that of our most primitive ancestors. It is our actively seeking knowledge, working to expand our perspective, that allows us to resolve our limited understanding at the boundaries of our knowledge and continue to expand our collective sphere of knowledge.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Our illusions are as good as they serve us to understand or perform better perhaps. Science seems to do quite well in this respect.

Are religions up for a popularity contest or as to which is thought right - and do likewise?

 

[PearlSeeker]

 

[sun rise]

Plato's cave is a good analogy to me. Most people are "sleep walkers" going through life without at least considering the question of meaning and purpose. Those who consider the "cave" are awake enough to have a chance of leaving it and stepping out into a wider world.

 

[Link]

Overused to the extent of beaten dead horse. I hate this analogy now for many so reasons, I don't know where to begin.

For one, there is light everywhere, even in the darkest of places. For two, truth is mixed with falsehood but people know the truth they justify but mix it with a falsehood they are not aware of, and it's get mixed together.

More will be said.

 

[The Hammer]

Platos Cave Allegory, is meant to show that we are shackled by our perceptions. If we can learn to step away from our percieved reality, and take a look at the whole, we may begin to see things as they are.

 

[John D. Brey]

A bit, but not quite. Plato is saying what we experience is an illusion and we only perceive actual reality through reason.

My view is that what we experience is reality, it is just that our perspective is limited or restricted. By expanding our perspective, (simplistically, for example, leaving a mountain valley and climbing a peak to see what is beyond the mountains), we are able to experience more of reality and begin to develop a more complete picture of reality.

What I would consider the inaccuracy of your second statement is that by climbing the mountain to get a better perspective, you're still using the flawed preprogramming of your means of perception as the window on reality: you're still stuck in your own phenomenology (what your genes tell you you're seeing).

In my opinion, your first statement is closer to the truth. But the "reason" that helps us know we're living in a lie, isn't reason that's a slave to our sense perceptions. On the contrary, it's the stupendous realization that we're able to see the errors in our sense perceptions that's the true key to beginning to perceive truth and reality.

Although our reason is trapped inside the laws of physics, and the physics of the world presented within those laws (and our genes are willing dupes), our reasoning power clearly, and undeniably, transcends the laws of physics. We can know this since even though harnessing nuclear power, or sending a ship to Mars doesn't break the laws of physics, there's nothing in the laws of physics that would tell a person such things are possible within the laws of physics. Only minds that already perceive that the laws are malleable (to an extent) attempt to create things that though nothing in all creation suggests of such things, these minds, exploring the limits of the laws of physics, are able to create.

A very good contemporary author discussing these things is Bernardo Kastrup.




John

 

[Wildswanderer]

View attachment 63610

Do you believe we humans are in the same predicament as the men in the cave in Plato's Allegory Of The Cave?

To quote Wikipedia:

…a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from objects passing in front of a fire behind them and give names to these shadows. The shadows are the prisoners’ reality, but are not accurate representations of the real world.
​

I do!

I believe that our reality is a computer simulation

And that it is a fairly crude simulation too but that we don't know any better!

To me, Plato's cave scenario resembles the truth of our condition to a very great degree

All we have ever known and can ever know are only shadows - that bear only a very minimal resemblance to anything that exists outside The Simulation

Were we to ever exit The Simulation our puny simulated minds would be totally blown

Yes, in a sense. The spiritual reality is the more real one, but all we see are shadows of it here in the physical world.

C.S Lewis The most intense joy lies not in the having but in the desiring. The delight that never fades, the bliss that is eternal is only yours when what you most desire is just out of reach.

 

[syo]

I believe that our reality is a computer simulation

No, it's not. It's the real deal. The pain is real.

 

[MikeF]

What I would consider the inaccuracy of your second statement is that by climbing the mountain to get a better perspective, you're still using the flawed preprogramming of your means of perception as the window on reality: you're still stuck in your own phenomenology (what your genes tell you you're seeing).

And yet, within their biological limits they statistically over the population as a whole provide accurate information about the macroscopic world. Add to this the instrumentation we create that enables us to expand the limits of our biological senses, and we have quite a confident picture of the macroscopic world.

In my opinion, your first statement is closer to the truth. But the "reason" that helps us know we're living in a lie, isn't reason that's a slave to our sense perceptions. On the contrary, it's the stupendous realization that we're able to see the errors in our sense perceptions that's the true key to beginning to perceive truth and reality.

Although our reason is trapped inside the laws of physics, and the physics of the world presented within those laws (and our genes are willing dupes), our reasoning power clearly, and undeniably, transcends the laws of physics. We can know this since even though harnessing nuclear power, or sending a ship to Mars doesn't break the laws of physics, there's nothing in the laws of physics that would tell a person such things are possible within the laws of physics. Only minds that already perceive that the laws are malleable (to an extent) attempt to create things that though nothing in all creation suggests of such things, these minds, exploring the limits of the laws of physics, are able to create.

A very good contemporary author discussing these things is Bernardo Kastrup.

John

And I would say this is your fatal flaw. The realm of abstraction is unbounded. We have the capacity to imagine things that do not exist or that are impossible to exist in reality. Simply because we can think it does not make it real. Think Unicorns. Abstraction is necessary for us to organize our thoughts and communicate them effectively. But only those aspects of abstract systems we create like language and mathematics that comport with our world of experience will be useful in drawing meaningful and accurate conclusion about our world.

 

[John D. Brey]

And I would say this is your fatal flaw. The realm of abstraction is unbounded. We have the capacity to imagine things that do not exist or that are impossible to exist in reality.

Wittgenstein, with others, implied your statement above is false. It's impossible to think of something that doesn't exist. All we can do is think of some Duke's mixture of things that do exist. We can think of a unicorn as a corny horn on a horse. But we're more like a dull brown horn coming out of a horse's behind if we think we can think of a unicoglcalphasismoroloid.

What's a "unicoglcalphasismoroloid"? I don't know? I haven't a clue. . . You tell me since you seem to think we can think of things that don't exist.




John

 

[John D. Brey]

And yet, within their biological limits they statistically over the population as a whole provide accurate information about the macroscopic world. Add to this the instrumentation we create that enables us to expand the limits of our biological senses, and we have quite a confident picture of the macroscopic world.

You might not be as scientifically astute as you might assume. You appear to me to be potentially a victim of the kind of just-so story about science, its appearance and evolution, that makes a forum like this such a fun and unruly free-for-all of unbounded abstractions and asinine distractions from sound history and the fury of reality that seemingly signifies nothing to the great and democratic majority.



John

 

[Mister Emu]

Plato's Cave is so often called to because of how well it reflects our experience with life. Both our own journey of understanding and what we as observers of others.

As we grow from childhood, we recognize that there is world beyond what our parents deign to share with us. As adults we see others, sometimes almost literally, sit in their caves and go along with whatever the dancing figures tell them. In science we find deeper truths hidden behind the physical reality. In philosophy, most find that all of physical reality hides an even deeper, metaphysical, truth.

I'm at a point where my own experiences lead me to believe in a truth beyond human understanding, that no finite being can completely comprehend. Whether that too is an illusion, I am incapable of saying.