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Place for Creationists to post their "reasonable tests" for their position

tas8831

Well-Known Member
De Duve,
“In all modern organisms, DNA contains in encrypted form the instructions for the manufacture of proteins. More specifically, encoded within DNA is the exact order in which amino acids, selected at each step from 20 distinct varieties should be strung together to form all of the organism’s proteins.”{Christian de Duve, “The Beginning of Life on Earth,” American Scientist, Vol. 83, Sept-Oct. 1995, p. 430}

Where does information come from?


Christian René Marie Joseph, Viscount de Duve (2 October 1917 – 4 May 2013) was a Nobel Prize-winning English-born Belgiancytologist and biochemist.


Christian René Marie Joseph de Duve

Known for Cell organelles

Awards

Scientific career
Fields


Institutions

Ah, yes - the requisite accolades list, in order to make the appeal to authority most impressive.

Sure, you did not read that article, correct? You just copy-pasted that quote, with all the usual accolades from some creationist site.

When I googled the quote, the first 7 or 8 returns were to - shocker - creationist/religious websites. But the actual paper does come up. It is more of an op-ed, but that is OK. Everyone has their opinions.

Of course, as quoted.... So what? Is that one of your 'more reasonable tests'? NOPE.

Does it prove Yaheweh didit ? NOPE.

So what is the point?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Who gave cells the understanding?

'Understanding'? LOL! - you're kidding, yes? You think that cells "understand" things? Wow...
The cell also needs the right amount of each protein. If it kept making more and more copies of any given protein, it would completely use up some of its raw materials. Also, if there were even one protein that the cell did not stop making after it had made enough, the cell would soon be jammed so full of that protein that it would pop. The production of every individual protein is and must be turned on and off at just the right moments. {Susan Aldridge, The Thread of Life, The story of genes and genetic engineering, Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 47-53}

Read that one, too, did you?.....

LOL!

Of course you didn't - you probably copy-pasted it from one of the 5 creationist sites (actually, just 2 sites, using the quote multiple times) that come up with a Google.

Weird thing - the original source as indicated above..... NEVER comes up. The ONLY sources are creationist. The ONLY part that is from a sane person is the last sentence.

Tell us all Ken - was it YOU that doctored the quote, or your creationist heroes?

Never mind - it was the source you didn't cite (plagiarist much? reported) - a lying creationist sack of turds named Thomas Heinze:

The cell also needs the right amount of each protein. If it kept making more and more copies of any given protein, it would completely use up some of its raw materials. Also, if there were even one protein that the cell did not stop making after it had made enough, the cell would soon be jammed so full of that protein that it would pop. The production of every individual protein is and must be turned on and off at just the right moments. {Susan Aldridge, The Thread of Life, The story of genes and genetic engineering, Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 47-53}​

Same weird use of curly brackets and everything.


An "honest" version can be seen here:

The cell also needs the right amount of each protein. If it kept making more and more copies of any given protein, it would completely use up some of its raw materials. Also, if there were even one protein that the cell did not stop making after it had made enough, the cell would soon be jammed so full of that protein that it would pop.

The production of every individual protein is and must be turned on and off at just the right moments. [Susan Aldridge, The Thread of Life, The story of genes and genetic engineering, Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 47-53]​

That dude is also a creationist hack, but at least he didn't doctor his out of context quote.

Not sure if I want to waste more time with another creationist plagiarist. Dishonesty in one area is often a red flag for more dishonesty elsewhere.


Even the statement of "genetic engineering" agrees with "intelligent design"

Right... Metaphors and such are now "evidence" to the desperate plagiarist....
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Your insights are amazing and beyond reproach. Well, not really.

OK. Here is my case, along with the evidence (hate to be the broken record):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it - I have posted this more than a dozen times for creationists who claim that there is no evidence for evolution:

The tested methodology:


Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can hereby ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:


Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION:

This evidence lays out the results of employing a tested methodology on the question of Primate evolution. The same general criteria/methods have been used on nearly all facets of the evolution of living things. Other than bland, predictable, and rather lame attempts to undermine the evidence by citing 'worst-case scenario experiments' and the like, no creationist has ever mounted a relelevant, much less scientific rebuttal. And, of course, no creationsit has ever offered real evidence in support of a biblical-style creation.
"Ugh, an explanation in more than a single short sentence? I'm not reading that!" -creationists
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Then again, no-one has really given me any "reasonable facts" that says I'm wrong.
That's not how science works.

IMV it just is too complex to be "random".
False dichotomy. Arising without intelligence doesn't mean it is "random".

Intelligent Design is still the best hypothesis.
Only if you can produce a testable version of it. If you cannot do that, then you cannot possibly assess how good a hypothesis it is.

IBM writes:
I don't care. I care about facts.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually, no. I don't think any side can be refuted... but irrelevant gish?

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): George Ellis (British astrophysicist): Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): George Greenstein (astronomer): Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): Tony Rothman (physicist): Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist):Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): Ed Harrison (cosmologist): Edward Milne (British cosmologist): Barry Parker (cosmologist):Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia): Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois)

So, your position is that these people present "irrelevant gish"? What are you qualifications to debate these people? I think you make yourself look quite irrelevant with that statement.


Correct.
Some of them are dead, so even you might be able to hold your own in a debate with them, though I am still giving the dead ones 3 to 1 against you.

Are any of the live ones posting here? I must have missed that. What did they post that is being called a gish gallop?
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I think your "rewording" is wrong. It's more like a twisting of statements to create a "fake news" perspective.

So let me first lay down a foundation:

As everybody know, how the earth began is a matter of perspective. Scientist look at the same thing but coming up with different viewpoints.

Below you will find 7 theories of the origin of life which is part of the perspective of creation.

7 Theories on the Origin of Life

At this point there really isn't a "test" (as you suggested) to find out how it all began since the "test" would have to recreate and procreate life and, thus, you created a false narrative. Fake news.

So, my point, which was stated in another thread or the same one, is simply point why I believe in Creationism by quoting people of renown and are expert in their fields. Will there be counter point? Of course! If there are 7 theories, every scientist will try to defend there point. Do they prove Creationism wrong? Obviously not, for if they did there would be only 1 theory.

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature�s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

Paul Davies: "The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose".

Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"

Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory."

Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan."

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance."

Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it."

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine."

Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics." Note: Tipler since has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, Physics of Christianity
ir
.

Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician)
: "We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it."

Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God the design argument of Paley updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one.... Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument."

Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him [God]."

Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed."

Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'."

Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."

Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan."

Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."

Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100 billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be entirely unique."

ir
Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design."

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science."


So what "testable" evidence can you provide to refute creationism?
What testable evidence did you provide? I am not seeing it.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
So, basically, an evolutionist would say that all that we have is by random chance. A Theist-Evolutionist would say, it has nothing to do with randomness but rather intelligently designed and purpose-driven to bring what we see today.
If you mean an evolutionary biologist or someone that accepts the theory of evolution with any understanding at all, neither of them would claim that all we have is by random chance.

A theistic evolutionist probably would say something like that, but they would be stating their belief and nothing that is scientific or has the support of evidence.

Intelligent design is a religious view held by people that have tried to merge their religious views with science in order to give validity and credibility to their religious positions. Does that sound like Christians with strong faith and belief? It doesn't to me. Frankly, it is useless and unnecessary to Christian faith and is another black mark that will be used against the faith.

There has been nothing scientific to come out of the intelligent design movement. No claims has been supported. It is not science and there are no tests or evidence to support religious claims arising from that movement nor has there been from anything before it. As a Christian, it is tantamount to supporting the bearing of false witness. I cannot abide by that. Frankly, I cannot understand how any Christian could, but I do understand human nature and ignorance and how desire can be mislead. So maybe the average Christian is not at fault for being taken in, but once the cat is out of the bag, I am less charitable in my estimations.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Then again, no-one has really given me any "reasonable facts" that says I'm wrong.

And the same can be said by bigfoot spotters, voodoo sjamans, alien abductees, scientologists who've achieved the level of "operating thetan", etc etc etc etc.

This is blatantly attempting to shift the burden of proof.

IMV it just is too complex to be "random".

1. strawmen - nobody says it is "just random"
2. argument from ignorance / incredulity

Combo points for using multiple logical fallacies in a single sentence.


Intelligent Design is still the best hypothesis.

ID is not a hypothesis because it makes no testable predictions, nore is it falsifiable.

IBM writes:

“To make proteins, agents known as ribosomes connect amino acids into long strings. These strings loop and fold around each other in a variety of ways. However, only one of these many ways will allow the protein to function properly.” {November 2001, IBM Research News October 1, 2001}

“… proteins fold into a highly complex, three-dimensional shape that determines their function. Any change in shape dramatically alters the function of a protein, and even the slightest change in the folding process can turn a desirable protein into a disease.” {IBM100 - Blue Gene}

And curiously, these researchers aren't creationists or cdesign proponentsists
Your argument from incredulity notwithstanding.


Your "evidence" presented so far is something akin to
"my evidence against evolution, is that I don't believe it"
and
"My evidence for ID, is that I believe it"




ps: whenever you are ready to either present your "reasonable tests" you claimed to have OR acknowledge that you were lying when you said that................
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Who gave cells the understanding?

What's wrong with "what"?
Why do you aks "who"?

Do you understand the concept of a "loaded question"?

The cell also needs the right amount of each protein. If it kept making more and more copies of any given protein, it would completely use up some of its raw materials.

Common sense dictates that cells who did just unrestrictedly make such copies, would thus not survive and that only those that didn't would survive.

It's called natural selection.


:rolleyes:


Also, if there were even one protein that the cell did not stop making after it had made enough, the cell would soon be jammed so full of that protein that it would pop. The production of every individual protein is and must be turned on and off at just the right moments. {Susan Aldridge, The Thread of Life, The story of genes and genetic engineering, Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 47-53}

Sure. This is exactly where natural selection comes in.

Even the statement of "genetic engineering" agrees with "intelligent design"

No, it doesn't.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
De Duve,
“In all modern organisms, DNA contains in encrypted form the instructions for the manufacture of proteins. More specifically, encoded within DNA is the exact order in which amino acids, selected at each step from 20 distinct varieties should be strung together to form all of the organism’s proteins.”{Christian de Duve, “The Beginning of Life on Earth,” American Scientist, Vol. 83, Sept-Oct. 1995, p. 430}

Where does information come from?



It comes from (at least) 3.8 billion years of evolution.

Christian René Marie Joseph, Viscount de Duve (2 October 1917 – 4 May 2013) was a Nobel Prize-winning English-born Belgiancytologist and biochemist.


Christian René Marie Joseph de Duve

Known for Cell organelles

Awards

Your point?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
"Ugh, an explanation in more than a single short sentence? I'm not reading that!" -creationists
That was, in essence, the very response I got from 'usfan' in his thread seeking evidence for common descent. Almost as if they don't even WANT the information they pretend to seek...
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
That was, in essence, the very response I got from 'usfan' in his thread seeking evidence for common descent. Almost as if they don't even WANT the information they pretend to seek...

I've also seen the demand that all information be presented in non-technical language, give technical details, be short, and be complete.

:confused:
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Then again, no-one has really given me any "reasonable facts" that says I'm wrong.

IMV it just is too complex to be "random". Intelligent Design is still the best hypothesis.

IBM writes:

“To make proteins, agents known as ribosomes connect amino acids into long strings. These strings loop and fold around each other in a variety of ways. However, only one of these many ways will allow the protein to function properly.” {November 2001, IBM Research News October 1, 2001}

“… proteins fold into a highly complex, three-dimensional shape that determines their function. Any change in shape dramatically alters the function of a protein, and even the slightest change in the folding process can turn a desirable protein into a disease.” {IBM100 - Blue Gene}
Steal that quote from Heinze, too?

Or was it here:

DNA and proteins

Proteins must fold perfectly

When a cell has made a new protein, while it is still moving into place, it folds into the exact shape which will allow it to connect with the proteins next to it. Some scientists use the illustration of a hand in a glove to describe how a protein must fit. Others liken it to the way a key fits in a lock. IBM is building the world’s most powerful super computer named Blue Gene, hoping to figure out how proteins fold correctly. The Oregonian describes the new super computer: “The machine, dubbed Blue Gene, will be turned loose on a single problem. The computer will try to model the way a human protein folds into a particular shape that gives it its unique biological properties.” {Justin Gillis, The Sunday Oregonian, June 4, 2000, A5}

IBM writes:

“To make proteins, agents known as ribosomes connect amino acids into long strings. These strings loop and fold around each other in a variety of ways. However, only one of these many ways will allow the protein to function properly.” {November 2001, IBM Research News October 1, 2001}

“… proteins fold into a highly complex, three-dimensional shape that determines their function. Any change in shape dramatically alters the function of a protein, andeven the slightest change in the folding process can turn a desirable protein into a disease.”{IBM100 - Blue Gene}

Because of the tremendous amount of computing power the new computer will unleash, running day and night it will only take: “about one year to simulate the complete folding of a typical protein.” {Robert F. Service, Science, 12/17/99, p. 2250}. Living cells, however, fold such proteins in less than a second. This evidence shows that the One who invented the way proteins fold in cells is much more intelligent than the new super computer.​


Wow - verbatim copy paste plagiarism - weird curly brackets again... And no citation to the source...

Tsk tsk... Creationists be like this...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
If you mean an evolutionary biologist or someone that accepts the theory of evolution with any understanding at all, neither of them would claim that all we have is by random chance.

A theistic evolutionist probably would say something like that, but they would be stating their belief and nothing that is scientific or has the support of evidence.

Intelligent design is a religious view held by people that have tried to merge their religious views with science in order to give validity and credibility to their religious positions. Does that sound like Christians with strong faith and belief? It doesn't to me. Frankly, it is useless and unnecessary to Christian faith and is another black mark that will be used against the faith.

There has been nothing scientific to come out of the intelligent design movement. No claims has been supported. It is not science and there are no tests or evidence to support religious claims arising from that movement nor has there been from anything before it. As a Christian, it is tantamount to supporting the bearing of false witness. I cannot abide by that. Frankly, I cannot understand how any Christian could, but I do understand human nature and ignorance and how desire can be mislead. So maybe the average Christian is not at fault for being taken in, but once the cat is out of the bag, I am less charitable in my estimations.

Someone once pointed out that the Creationist's God is kinda dumb, and somewhat inept too.

In short? The god of Creationism is Tiny. Little. Short-sighted. Not too bright.

Back in the day? I found such a god unworthy. I much preferred a god who had the Long View. Who was Majestic. Who's Creative Abilities spanned Eons and beyond. Who's Long Range Planning had thousand year plans, million year plans, and billion year plans and beyond. Who's Scope included an Infinite Universe*.

Not some puny god who only had a scant 6,000 years, and had to magically *poof* everything into place-- and clearly, was too dumb to use **unique** creative processes for every animal on the planet, but instead Rubber Stamped everything with only minor variations between.

I can respect the former God.

The Creationism god? I have less respect for it than I have for a ground squirrel. And there is no shortage of ground squirrels, is there?



__________________

* The Universe could very well be infinite. We do not know, and worse-- we cannot know because of the speed limit on light (information).
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
No... In essence what I said is that there will be no test no matter what position one has. So we are all relegated to viewpoints. My "viewpoint" is simply to agree with one set of scientists while others will agree with another set.

That is why it is still in debate.

Jumped in semi-blind and this one caught my eye.

First, I agree with the posters who see your list of quotes as insignificant. They present the same teleological/ontological etc. arguments that have been tried and have failed; and have done so for literally centuries. Those aren't tests and they aren't evidence of anything.

So. On to this.

There is no "viewpoint", really, There is only where the evidence leads; and the evidence supporting Big Bang, and Evolution is utterly overwhelming. Abiogenesis? Working on that one! But the evidence supporting Creationism? Nada. None, Zilch, Zero. The "idea" that there is some kind of "controversy"; or that we are "seeing the same evidence and interpreting it differently" or "Its a matter of viewpoint" are catch phrases of the Creationist Fundamentalist Extremist LIteralist Apologist who bring nothing to the table.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Hehe that's so funny kangarooFeathers. Have you seen all common to all dogs is floppy ears characteristic of wolf pups, and the wolf has straight ears.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Steal that quote from Heinze, too?

Or was it here:

DNA and proteins

Proteins must fold perfectly

When a cell has made a new protein, while it is still moving into place, it folds into the exact shape which will allow it to connect with the proteins next to it. Some scientists use the illustration of a hand in a glove to describe how a protein must fit. Others liken it to the way a key fits in a lock. IBM is building the world’s most powerful super computer named Blue Gene, hoping to figure out how proteins fold correctly. The Oregonian describes the new super computer: “The machine, dubbed Blue Gene, will be turned loose on a single problem. The computer will try to model the way a human protein folds into a particular shape that gives it its unique biological properties.” {Justin Gillis, The Sunday Oregonian, June 4, 2000, A5}

IBM writes:

“To make proteins, agents known as ribosomes connect amino acids into long strings. These strings loop and fold around each other in a variety of ways. However, only one of these many ways will allow the protein to function properly.” {November 2001, IBM Research News October 1, 2001}

“… proteins fold into a highly complex, three-dimensional shape that determines their function. Any change in shape dramatically alters the function of a protein, andeven the slightest change in the folding process can turn a desirable protein into a disease.”{IBM100 - Blue Gene}

Because of the tremendous amount of computing power the new computer will unleash, running day and night it will only take: “about one year to simulate the complete folding of a typical protein.” {Robert F. Service, Science, 12/17/99, p. 2250}. Living cells, however, fold such proteins in less than a second. This evidence shows that the One who invented the way proteins fold in cells is much more intelligent than the new super computer.​


Wow - verbatim copy paste plagiarism - weird curly brackets again... And no citation to the source...

Tsk tsk... Creationists be like this...

In that it is simply impossible to be an informed and
honest creationist, you are maybe making
excessive demands.
 
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