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Pink Floyd's Animals: Judging Others: Matthew 7:1-6

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I think I will start breaking out some of my questions so that the thread doesn't go in too many directions at once and I can have a chance to advance some thoughts without them being buried too deeply in an exhausted and distracted thread...

Jesus taught...the measure of judgment you use on others will be used on you. You have failings much more significant than you can perceive in others. Do not give sacredness to dogs, pearls to pigs.

My question is this:
  • Do the metaphors about dogs, pearls and pigs relate to jugding others? Or is this properly a separate topic?
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think I will start breaking out some of my questions so that the thread doesn't go in too many directions at once and I can have a chance to advance some thoughts without them being buried too deeply in an exhausted and distracted thread...

Jesus taught...the measure of judgment you use on others will be used on you. You have failings much more significant than you can perceive in others. Do not give sacredness to dogs, pearls to pigs.

My question is this:
  • Do the metaphors about dogs, pearls and pigs relate to jugding others? Or is this properly a separate topic?
".the measure of judgment you use on others will be used on you."

Kurt godel died out of a fear of germ by starving himself to death by not eating. The verse is a very karma like verse and how we go about our lives and deal with it determines a lot of it. One has to remember jesus actually died so did he do something wrong? No he did everything right and died.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
".the measure of judgment you use on others will be used on you."

Kurt godel died out of a fear of germ by starving himself to death by not eating. The verse is a very karma like verse and how we go about our lives and deal with it determines a lot of it. One has to remember jesus actually died so did he do something wrong? No he did everything right and died.

I didn't know that about Godel...seems very ironic given some of his work. Also not since he was probably an NT type personality which I suspect can be somewhat prone to paranoia regarding the bodily reality.

What do you make of the fact that Jesus died? Is that, in some way, God's judgment (because of Adam and Eve)? Is God judging Himself?

Also, what do you think more particularly about my question?

It seems to me that the dog, pig and pearl metaphors indicate that we should judge others so that we don't give valuable knowledge to those who will misuse it and the giver!
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I didn't know that about Godel...seems very ironic given some of his work. Also not since he was probably an NT type personality which I suspect can be somewhat prone to paranoia regarding the bodily reality.

What do you make of the fact that Jesus died? Is that, in some way, God's judgment (because of Adam and Eve)? Is God judging Himself?

Also, what do you think more particularly about my question?

It seems to me that the dog, pig and pearl metaphors indicate that we should judge others so that we don't give valuable knowledge to those who will misuse it and the giver!
First godel was a lutheren and became sonewhat obsessed with furthering anselms proof of god as he got older. He was literally a mystic and a bit confused at the same time.

In regatds to jesus death i approax it very very cautiously.. It reads out in alignment to how ever we percieve ourselves and the world around us. Pope clement the first in 80 ad wrote "it has been said there is a creature that lives in egypt that lives 700-1400 years called the pheonix" and he went on to explain christianity. Seems rather clear and plain and simple actually but definitely not modern christianity "believeism" at all.
In regards to the last question its like my first statement.
 

Earthling

David Henson
I think I will start breaking out some of my questions so that the thread doesn't go in too many directions at once and I can have a chance to advance some thoughts without them being buried too deeply in an exhausted and distracted thread...

Jesus taught...the measure of judgment you use on others will be used on you. You have failings much more significant than you can perceive in others. Do not give sacredness to dogs, pearls to pigs.

My question is this:
  • Do the metaphors about dogs, pearls and pigs relate to jugding others? Or is this properly a separate topic?

I'm not sure what you are going for here. The mention of Pink Floyd's Animals album, one of my favorite PF albums, may be throwing me off.

Walking through the valley of shadow and all of that stuff. I think they are talking about two different things. The Bible says not to cast pearls before swine. Because swine have no use of pearls and so it's a waste of time.

PF's pigs are the common people struggling in the mud, digging for grub.

The Bible uses dogs in a couple different ways. Dogs are scavengers, unclean to the Jews. They didn't have dogs as pets or work. A dog will eat, puke and then eat the puke. The Bible says like a dog to it's own vomit so are the ones repeating wrongdoing.

PF's dogs are the stab you in the back to advance themselves forward in the business world. Like a pack of wild dogs fighting over scraps.

The Bible uses sheep as the timid and humble followers of God. He protects his herd like a shepherd. They need to stay together for their own protection of the wolf, who sometimes appears as one of them. In, so to speak, sheep's clothing.

PF's sheep are a negative sort of parody of those. Doing what they are told, without individuality.

People have to judge. We judge who should be our leaders, in and/or out of the congregation. We judge who may be trying deceive us, or who is a potential threat. The Bible indicates that one who isn't willing to forgive others isn't likely to be forgiven themselves. One who judges harshly will be judged harshly, or one who judges another for a matter in which it is not their position to judge will be judged accordingly, judge for being self righteous.

Of course, as with anything all of this can fan out in all sorts of directions for consideration. Religious people tend to think, incorrectly IMO, that Judgement day is a day when we stand before God and are judged. But that isn't very accurate.

We judge ourselves through our actions in the present, if we have an accurate knowledge. We decide whether or not we want to live according to the spirit rather than the flesh, in as much as it is possible to do so.

If we reject God, either directly or through our actions, we have judged ourselves and there is no need for a "Judgement Day." The same applies for those who accept God, directly or through their actions.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you are going for here. The mention of Pink Floyd's Animals album, one of my favorite PF albums, may be throwing me off.

Walking through the valley of shadow and all of that stuff. I think they are talking about two different things. The Bible says not to cast pearls before swine. Because swine have no use of pearls and so it's a waste of time.

PF's pigs are the common people struggling in the mud, digging for grub.

The Bible uses dogs in a couple different ways. Dogs are scavengers, unclean to the Jews. They didn't have dogs as pets or work. A dog will eat, puke and then eat the puke. The Bible says like a dog to it's own vomit so are the ones repeating wrongdoing.

PF's dogs are the stab you in the back to advance themselves forward in the business world. Like a pack of wild dogs fighting over scraps.

The Bible uses sheep as the timid and humble followers of God. He protects his herd like a shepherd. They need to stay together for their own protection of the wolf, who sometimes appears as one of them. In, so to speak, sheep's clothing.

PF's sheep are a negative sort of parody of those. Doing what they are told, without individuality.

People have to judge. We judge who should be our leaders, in and/or out of the congregation. We judge who may be trying deceive us, or who is a potential threat. The Bible indicates that one who isn't willing to forgive others isn't likely to be forgiven themselves. One who judges harshly will be judged harshly, or one who judges another for a matter in which it is not their position to judge will be judged accordingly, judge for being self righteous.

Of course, as with anything all of this can fan out in all sorts of directions for consideration. Religious people tend to think, incorrectly IMO, that Judgement day is a day when we stand before God and are judged. But that isn't very accurate.

We judge ourselves through our actions in the present, if we have an accurate knowledge. We decide whether or not we want to live according to the spirit rather than the flesh, in as much as it is possible to do so.

If we reject God, either directly or through our actions, we have judged ourselves and there is no need for a "Judgement Day." The same applies for those who accept God, directly or through their actions.

Thanks for your in-depth reply. I put the Pink Floyd reference in the title for two reasons:
  • It draws attention: many of my scriptural study posts are technical in nature so a catchy title is helpful I assume
  • I realized that that album is an interesting take on the scripture I am focusing on
I suppose that I am working out my originally naive and poorly studied assumption about "do not judge". It seems that it is commonly understood that what Jesus is saying in Matthew 7:1-6 is mainly about hypocrisy. I originally assumed it meant much more than that and I have come to understand that we are all psychologically biased in how our personalities develop and how our cultures may raise us, so that I want to see more in what Jesus was teaching than the simple notion of hypocrisy. To think that Jesus wasn't communicating something more profound that logical hypocrisy is disappointing to me. I think that psychology teaches us that there is something more substantial here.

But to the point of this thread, I wondered whether the sacred to the dogs and the pearls to the swine metaphors had to do with not judging others...now it seems it has to do with judging others. So v1-5 are a warning about the overuse of judgment while v6 is about the requirement for judgment. They are related but have opposing emphases IMO.

Interestingly I see that v6 seems to say that both dogs and pigs might "tear you to pieces". It is, perhaps, the desperation and hunger of either attitude whether it is predator or prey turning on those who offer spiritual fruit mistaken for the physical.

I appreciate your other comments. I am mainly focusing on building up my knowledge of scripture one chapter at a time and so I will keep your additional comments under consideration.

I also did take the time just now to read through the lyrics of Pink Floyd's album Animal. Its always fun (and annoying) to try and read the lyrics of familiar music with the melody in mind (and also try to listen to the meaning of the words without the melody present). Roger Waters paints such a dark but insightful picture of reality. I now consider this album as a useful commentary on Matthew 7:6.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Squirrels in the closet with a scrub brush.....

Or something like that. Bears mentioning givin its Pink Floyd, animals, and all....
 

Earthling

David Henson
Thanks for your in-depth reply. I put the Pink Floyd reference in the title for two reasons:
  • It draws attention: many of my scriptural study posts are technical in nature so a catchy title is helpful I assume
  • I realized that that album is an interesting take on the scripture I am focusing on
I suppose that I am working out my originally naive and poorly studied assumption about "do not judge". It seems that it is commonly understood that what Jesus is saying in Matthew 7:1-6 is mainly about hypocrisy. I originally assumed it meant much more than that and I have come to understand that we are all psychologically biased in how our personalities develop and how our cultures may raise us, so that I want to see more in what Jesus was teaching than the simple notion of hypocrisy. To think that Jesus wasn't communicating something more profound that logical hypocrisy is disappointing to me. I think that psychology teaches us that there is something more substantial here.

But to the point of this thread, I wondered whether the sacred to the dogs and the pearls to the swine metaphors had to do with not judging others...now it seems it has to do with judging others. So v1-5 are a warning about the overuse of judgment while v6 is about the requirement for judgment. They are related but have opposing emphases IMO.

Interestingly I see that v6 seems to say that both dogs and pigs might "tear you to pieces". It is, perhaps, the desperation and hunger of either attitude whether it is predator or prey turning on those who offer spiritual fruit mistaken for the physical.

I appreciate your other comments. I am mainly focusing on building up my knowledge of scripture one chapter at a time and so I will keep your additional comments under consideration.

I also did take the time just now to read through the lyrics of Pink Floyd's album Animal. Its always fun (and annoying) to try and read the lyrics of familiar music with the melody in mind (and also try to listen to the meaning of the words without the melody present). Roger Waters paints such a dark but insightful picture of reality. I now consider this album as a useful commentary on Matthew 7:6.

Have you heard Roger's Amused To Death? Now there's an album! My favorite album of all time by anyone, actually. His lyrics on that album deal a great deal with the God of the people, (Waters Is an atheist) and the political and social ridiculousness of it all.

 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Have you heard Roger's Amused To Death? Now there's an album! My favorite album of all time by anyone, actually. His lyrics on that album deal a great deal with the God of the people, (Waters Is an atheist) and the political and social ridiculousness of it all.


It is intriguing...I will try and take a good listen sometime.
 
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