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Featured Picking And Choosing One's Way Through The Old Testament

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Hey, if Jesus says you only have to obey the 10 Cs and

    1) Don’t eat food that has been given to idols

    2) Don’t eat meat from animals that have been strangled or any meat that still has the blood in it.

    3) Don’t be involved in sexual sin.
    That's fine with me. But if come around here thinking it's alright to murder my family, or have sex with my dog because those prohibitions only applied to the Jews. You'd better wear your track shoes and body armor.

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  2. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    You don't seems to understand that Christians have a higher principle than the Noachide laws or the Judaic Law.
    Under the Mosaic Law we are told we are told that we are not to commit adultery but Jesus tells us that if you even look at someone with lust in your heart you are committing adultery. Jesus takes it to a whole other level. We have one Law and one Principle like @David T was laughing at and it is the like David said the stupid one that most Christians choose to abandon and ignore.
     
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  3. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Amen amen amen!!!

    Btw thank you for getting my sarcasm.
     
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  4. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    In as much as these laws---those appearing in the Old Testament---were set down by god, you're saying Christians have a higher principle than god. Maybe so. Maybe not, but it's a pretty audacious and impudent claim nonetheless: "WE Christians know better than god."

    No. He just added another condition to the law. Don't use your penis + don't even think of using your penis.

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  5. Kk4mds

    Kk4mds Member

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    That is correct. A Gentile does not need to be be obedient to the commandments to have his or her name written in G-d’s book of life. All it takes is righteousness.
     
  6. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    If you think following 613 rules about what kind of cloths to wear or what food to eat is going to make you righteous then go ahead.
     
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  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    They had to do that. Conversion rates are very low when a guy screams "You want to cut off the tip of my what!!??" .
     
  8. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    As Jesus (in the text) dismissed some laws such as dietary. Thus some of the laws are no longer binding
     
  9. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    The Laws and guidelines in the Old Testament were written for the Israelites [Not the Jews after the Lord Jesus Christ and certainly not the Jews of today.]

    upload_2019-7-4_21-26-30.jpeg

    This is what the bible says:

    Exodus 20:1-2 New International Version (NIV)
    And God spoke all these words:

    “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

    upload_2019-7-4_20-43-48.jpeg

    Who was brought out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery?

    a] the Europeans
    b] the Asians
    c] the Americans
    d] the Israelites
    e] all of the above

    I'm sure you know the correct answer.

    Now are these guidelines and commands to be followed?
    Sure they are to be followed if you are an Israelite who are people of the Old Covenant.

    Exodus 25:22 New International Version (NIV)
    There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the covenant law, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

    Does your passport say you are an Israelite?
    Mine doesn't

    upload_2019-7-4_20-52-0.jpeg

    Am I to follow the commands for the Israelites?
    It depends, if it is affirmed in the New Covenant, the covenant for those who follow Christ.

    Hebrews 8:6-8 New International Version (NIV)
    But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

    For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said:

    “The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.

    upload_2019-7-4_20-56-24.jpeg

    It is true that all scripture is God-breathed and true Christians should not dismiss any one of them - as the Lord Jesus puts it:

    Matthew 5:18 New International Version (NIV)

    For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    The point of the matter is - the Law given to Moses is for the Israelites to follow.
    Not other ancient peoples of the Middle East, not even China, not even the Incas or Mayans of the MesoAmericas
    For the Israelites only. And having said so, it does not also apply to the modern people, the people of our time.
    Only the Israelites because they are the people of the Old Covenant.

    The Old Covenant becomes a reference of the New Covenant.
    The New Covenant applies to true Christians.
    The New Covenant has the basis of the Old Covenant but with some fine tuning
    Under the New Covenant and not found in the Old Covenant are:

    1] Circumcision are optional
    2] Animals prohibited to be eaten could be eaten
    3] the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord and Messiah and should be worshiped
    4] the Body of Christ, the Church is God's chosen people
    5] Sabbath and its rules are no longer observed
    6] Faith with works is required not simple obedience
    7] All other old testament commands are the same provided they are in harmony with 1 to 6 above
     
  10. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Please try again.

    .
     
  12. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    Matthew 21:43. He said, “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you” — addressing the Jewish leaders as representative of Israel — “and given to a people producing its fruits.” In other words, Christians.
    "According to one Christian source "The implication this has for the appropriation of the Old Testament laws is that all the laws which had as their design a ritual distinction between Israel and the nations have come to an end because those nations are now being folded into the very people of God, and the cultural stumbling blocks are being removed — like circumcision, like food and dietary laws, like the weaving together of two different fabrics that you’re not supposed to wear in order to show that there’s a distinction between Israel and the nations."
    The above source also states "He then argues that the law in some cases was a temporary compromise with sin, but in the beginning it was not so; it was different." (I will look up the passage if you need me to. I do remember it.)

    Another good point made by this source states "Matthew 12:7: “And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.” In other words, there are mercy and law commandments, which sum up the entire legal, moral code, and become a guideline for us today." I would say that mercy is one of the Ten Commandments because it is a part of love.

    John 10:30-39
    30 I and the Father are one.”
    31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
    33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[a]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
    John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
    Romans 7:4–6: “Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another.” So once you belonged to the law; now you belong to another — “to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.”

    Jesus healed on the Sabbath many times.
    Mark 2:23-28 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
    He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”
    Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

    Hebrews 10:11-22 Speaks of an end to sacrifices because Jesus was the sacrifice for all sin and the Holy Spirit says that He will put my laws in their hearts,and will write them on their minds and their sins and lawless acts He will remember no more.
    “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” (Luke 22:20) Jesus particularly states that He is the New Covenant which is the law.

    Jesus says explicitly in Mark 7:19 that all foods are now clean for you.
    1 Corinthians 7:19: “For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.”

    Jesus did speak of the Ten Commandments, particularly of love, so that Christians should always be loving people. That is what Jesus was about.

    And my source for those parts I quoted a source is Five Ways Jesus Changes Our Relationship to the Old Testament. I am not the only person with these beliefs.

    I think that the most important thing for any Christian to realize is that Jesus said:
    Matthew 22:36-40 English Standard Version (ESV)
    36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

    Paul stated also: 1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

    So, I guess you could say that Jesus also picked and chose. He said that whichever things were loving were the proper laws.
     
  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Although to my knowledge Jesus never said anything about homosexual love, Paul, his spokesman, certainly did.

    Romans 1:26-27
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [by perversion], nor those who participate in homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers [whose words are used as weapons to abuse, insult, humiliate, intimidate, or slander], nor swindlers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

    1 Timothy 1:8–11
    8 Now we know [without any doubt] that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully and appropriately, 9 understanding the fact that law is not enacted for the righteous person [the one in right standing with God], but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for sexually immoral persons, for homosexuals, for [a]kidnappers and slave traders, for liars, for perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
    So, so much for "things were loving were the proper laws."

    .
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    It’s not as if the texts are absolute. It’s not as if we are the intended audience of any of it. It’s not as if cultural differences and religious differences don’t count in how the texts are properly interpreted.
     
  15. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I thought god was unchanging and that what he believed in year XXXX held true forever, and that what is true for population XYZ is true for all populations. That when god said Israelites shouldn't wear clothes made of mixed fabrics, nobody should. Why would the Israelites be singled out? Isn't the god of the Israelites the god of everybody? After all, I don't recall god ever saying, "The laws I give you Israelites are only for you." Do you?

    What I think has happened is that Christians simply don't like some of the old laws, and when cherry picking the scriptures for their religion decided to ignore 2nd timothy 3:16

    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    and treat it as if it doesn't exist. (And please don't suggest the "reproof" and "correction" spoken of is meant to apply to what is said in the quote.)

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    #55 Skwim, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The mistake you’re making in your argument has several parts:
    1) that the texts are universal to all humanity,
    2) that God wrote them,
    3) that it’s only God’s perspective that matters,
    4) that the texts are immutable.

    The OT texts were written by several ancient, Near East cultures, and edited and redacted by ancient Judaics following the Exile. Those texts reflect those cultures, and are binding only upon the ones who wrote them and their intended audiences. That addresses fallacies 1 and 2.

    Since the texts were written by people and for people, it seems obvious that 1) the texts were written from a human perspective, and that they will be interpreted and either adopted or dismissed through that same lens. That is as it is supposed to be.

    The texts, themselves, are not immutable. They began as mostly oral transmissions and were not written down until sometimes centuries later, after a dramatic editing process, not to mention translation. Therefore, it stands to reason that they’re not supposed to be immutable. It also stands to reason that the process of interpretation varies from culture to culture and age to age. It appears as though you think that the texts are like a Chilton’s manual for a ‘73 Chevy Malibu. They’re not. That’s why Talmud is so important.

    As for 2 Timothy, yes, all scripture is useful as it says. But it patently doesn’t say that all texts have to be followed word-for-word. Even Jesus weighs the importance and applicability of texts. Sometimes the usefulness of the texts is in the instructions they give us regarding how ancient people thought about God. That doesn’t mean, however, that we are constrained to think in exactly the same terms.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Hmmm... I submit:
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
    9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Timothy 1:8-11 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
    8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. 9 This means understanding that the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, 10 fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me

    Romans 1:26-27 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
    26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
    I don’t see anything here related to homosexuality. I see male prostitutes, I see male rapists (sodomy), I see cultural-specific attitudes toward honor and shame. I don’t see homosexuality. Are you sure what “God said?”
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Nope, because Jesus is God. When Jesus speaks and overturns something, it’s God speaking and overturning something. It’s saying that the New Covenant supersedes the Old Covenant, just as every subsequent Covenant has superseded the ones before it for the Jews in the OT.
     
  19. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Actually, they're claims I see Christians making.

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  20. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    And to whom was the new covenant aimed at? The Israelites.

    Jeremiah 31:33
    “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

    but for everybody else all the laws were to remain the same.


    Matthew 5:17-20
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

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