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Picking And Choosing One's Way Through The Old Testament

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
A few other translations for comparison

(1) Ephesians 2:13-15 (NRSV)
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. 15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace,
AND

(2) Ephesians 2:13-15(ERV)
13 Yes, at one time you were far away from God, but now in Christ Jesus, you are brought near to him. You are brought near to God through the blood sacrifice of Christ. 14 Christ is the reason we are now at peace. He made us Jews and you who are not Jews one people. We were separated by a wall of hate that stood between us, but Christ broke down that wall. By giving his own body, 15 Christ ended the law with its many commands and rules. His purpose was to make the two groups become one in him. By doing this he would make peace.
AND


(3)Ephesians 2:13-15 (NKJV)
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

So, as I read the translations:

(Yours) "he . . . has made us . . . by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances,"
(1) "He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances,"
(2) "Christ ended the law with its many commands and rules."
(3) "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,"

Jesus abolished the law of commandments,

Meaning that the those laid down by god in the Old Testament no longer apply, which include the 613 Commandments in the Old Testament Law. One is no longer forbidden to "lie with beasts,"(Leviticus 18:23) "posses inaccurate weights and measures,"(Deuteronomy 25:13) or "sell captive women."( Deuteronomy 21:14) However! Jesus does say ya still gotta abide by the Ten Commandments. But other laws, such as: accepting a ransom from a wilful murderer,(Numbers 35:32 ), Cursing Jews (Leviticus 19:14), and having sex with one's mother (Leviticus 18:7) are now null and void.

Enjoy yourself.

.
That is not the way it goes, dude. We get our moral principles from a different law.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
So the Christian is no longer forbidden to curse Jews, or lie with one's mother. How nice. And homosexuals can go ahead and sex it up with no fear of going to hell for it. Now that's good!

By the way, just where does it say that the Old Testament laws don't apply to Christians, but are only to be used as spiritual examples and for teaching?
.

The clearest place (outside Paul, whose entire vocation was about preaching the message that the ceremonial parts of the Torah are no longer required to be in covenant with God) is at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The Apostles' final decree to Gentile Christians was, "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.” (verses 28-29)
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
.

In a conversation not too long ago a member here said the laws and guidelines in the Old Testament were written for the Jews, and that they don't apply to Christians. Now I know he didn't mean all Old Testament laws and guidelines, just those he was finding troublesome.

My question here is that in light of what is said in the New Testament:

2nd timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

how can a Christian honestly dismiss any parts of the Old Testament?


.
.
I don't believe in scapegoating

and likewise.....that Someone died AS a scapegoat?

not buying it
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
.

In a conversation not too long ago a member here said the laws and guidelines in the Old Testament were written for the Jews, and that they don't apply to Christians. Now I know he didn't mean all Old Testament laws and guidelines, just those he was finding troublesome.

My question here is that in light of what is said in the New Testament:

2nd timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

how can a Christian honestly dismiss any parts of the Old Testament?


.
.
Let me see.....as a Christian, do I need to be circumcised, then?
I think Acts of the Apostles 15 dealt with that.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
So the Christian is no longer forbidden to curse Jews, or lie with one's mother. How nice. And homosexuals can go ahead and sex it up with no fear of going to hell for it. Now that's good!

By the way, just where does it say that the Old Testament laws don't apply to Christians, but are only to be used as spiritual examples and for teaching?

.
.
Acts of the Apostles 15. Then, Read vss 28&29. (The prohibition relevant for Christians includes sexual immorality.)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
.

2nd timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
how can a Christian honestly dismiss any parts of the Old Testament?.
To which we can add ─

Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them ... 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.​

(And I don't see how it can be argued that from the Christian point of view, as at July 2019 "all is accomplished".)
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
To which we can add ─

Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them ... 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.​

(And I don't see how it can be argued that from the Christian point of view, as at July 2019 "all is accomplished".)
Is Jesus' ministry still going on? Is he out there preaching somewhere I am not aware of?
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
I look left, I look right, I look up, and down, but I can't say I can see the Kingdom anywhere.

Kim and Trump maybe, but no Kingdom.
Maybe you are looking in the wrong place. But anyways, his ministry is done. It was finished. When he died his last words were "It is accomplished"
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
God makes a new covenant with humanity in the New Testament where He promises forgiveness of all Christians' sins and restores fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, and His death on the cross is the basis for Christians being able to disregard ancient Mosaic law.
I'm curious, how many times can a person keep repeating a sin and getting forgiven for it?

.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
That is not the way it goes, dude. We get our moral principles from a different law.
Okay, so assuming that accepting a ransom from a wilful murderer is a matter of morality,which god felt necessary to "spell out," just where is it addressed other than in Numbers 35:32 ?



The clearest place (outside Paul, whose entire vocation was about preaching the message that the ceremonial parts of the Torah are no longer required to be in covenant with God) is at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The Apostles' final decree to Gentile Christians was, "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.” (verses 28-29)

Acts 15:28-29
28 We agree with the Holy Spirit that you should have no more burdens, except for these necessary things:
29 Don’t eat food that has been given to idols.
Don’t eat meat from animals that have been strangled or any meat that still has the blood in it.
Don’t be involved in sexual sin.
If you stay away from these, you will do well.
We say goodbye now.
So there are three necessary things one should do to live what I assume is a sin free life:

1) Don’t eat food that has been given to idols

2) Don’t eat meat from animals that have been strangled or any meat that still has the blood in it.

3) Don’t be involved in sexual sin.​

Nothing at all about not cheating one's neighbor, or killing him, or bearing false witness against him. interesting.



To which we can add ─

Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them ... 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.​

(And I don't see how it can be argued that from the Christian point of view, as at July 2019 "all is accomplished".)

:thumbsup:

.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
I'm curious, how many times can a person keep repeating a sin and getting forgiven for it?

.

That's the beauty of Christianity, J.C. washes away all His faithful followers' sins. ...:)
 
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Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
A few other translations for comparison

(1) Ephesians 2:13-15 (NRSV)
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. 15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace,
AND

(2) Ephesians 2:13-15(ERV)
13 Yes, at one time you were far away from God, but now in Christ Jesus, you are brought near to him. You are brought near to God through the blood sacrifice of Christ. 14 Christ is the reason we are now at peace. He made us Jews and you who are not Jews one people. We were separated by a wall of hate that stood between us, but Christ broke down that wall. By giving his own body, 15 Christ ended the law with its many commands and rules. His purpose was to make the two groups become one in him. By doing this he would make peace.
AND


(3)Ephesians 2:13-15 (NKJV)
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

So, as I read the translations:

(Yours) "he . . . has made us . . . by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances,"
(1) "He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances,"
(2) "Christ ended the law with its many commands and rules."
(3) "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,"

Jesus abolished the law of commandments,

Meaning that the those laid down by god in the Old Testament no longer apply, which include the 613 Commandments in the Old Testament Law. A person is no longer forbidden to "lie with beasts,"(Leviticus 18:23) "posses inaccurate weights and measures,"(Deuteronomy 25:13) or "sell captive women."( Deuteronomy 21:14) However! Jesus does say we still have to abide by the Ten Commandments. But other laws, such as: accepting a ransom from a wilful murderer,(Numbers 35:32 ), Cursing Jews (Leviticus 19:14), and having sex with one's mother (Leviticus 18:7) are now null and void.

Enjoy yourself.

.

I've broken half of the ten commandments, even so, if I were to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, God would consider me as having been recused of any wrongdoing. ....I'd be judged by God as though I had always followed each and every one of God's commandments.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
it is within you
No, it's not.

Nor is it in anyone.

It's an earthly regime, and the Jesuses of Mark, Matthew and Luke each promised it would be established in the lifetime of some of the audience; but that didn't happen, and it still hasn't happened, and I'm not holding my breath.

As one inclined to democracy, I think the idea of a theocracy is essentially nasty anyway, not a smart thing to wish for.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
No, it's not.

Nor is it in anyone.

It's an earthly regime, and the Jesuses of Mark, Matthew and Luke each promised it would be established in the lifetime of some of the audience; but that didn't happen, and it still hasn't happened, and I'm not holding my breath.

As one inclined to democracy, I think the idea of a theocracy is essentially nasty anyway, not a smart thing to wish for.
as believing on the next life would be essential

I believe in hierarchy
we have it here
likely to have it there

Someone needs to be in charge
or we stand into chaos

so...…
after your last breath ….you stand ...in spirit
and then end up with others like yourself

How else to be happy?
How else to be fair?

so the kingdom.....is within you
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
as believing on the next life would be essential

I believe in hierarchy
we have it here
likely to have it there

Someone needs to be in charge
or we stand into chaos

so...…
after your last breath ….you stand ...in spirit
and then end up with others like yourself

How else to be happy?
How else to be fair?

so the kingdom.....is within you
And who's in charge?

And what if you dislike who's in charge, or any other aspect of this system?

What are your inalienable rights and freedoms? As I understand it, it's an unbending autarchy and if you don't like, well you can just suck it up, and if you still don't like it you can suck that up too.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
That's the beauty of Christianity, J.C. washes away all His faithful followers' sins. ...:)
So one can keep having adulterous affairs, one after the other, just making sure you ask for forgiveness in between them, and after the last one, and you'll be A-OK with god and avoid hell. OR, just make sure you ask for forgiveness after the last one. :thumbsup:

Curious operation, to say the least.

I've broken half of the ten commandments, even so, if I were to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, God would consider me as having been recused of any wrongdoing. ....I'd be judged by God as though I had always followed each and every one of God's commandments.
So, a Christian can be as bad as she likes in life, but just has to remember that before she dies to ask for forgiveness. Now that's COOL!

.
 
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