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Petition to God

mr.guy

crapsack
robtex said:
1) Should God be held accountable for the world's woes?
Why not? Our tendency towards tribalism in part recoginizes how efficient it is to blame a central authority.
2) Does petition to God postitivly impact the world's woes?
Only if god accepts petitions. Does he ever go for that?

are the two answers both consistant and reconcilable and if so or not why or why not?
I don't think so; i'm not sure god could be heavily motivated to participate in these negotiations.
 

stemann

Time Bandit
Super Universe said:
Not at all, what do you think heaven is?

Oh, but you want it now, before you've earned a thing. You not only want God to create a universe for you but you want it to suit your whims as well. You don't want to have to learn anything. You don't want to have to work to make anything better.

You, you, you...

Earned????? How does one earn such a thing? I don't "want" God to create a universe "for" me, because before there is a universe in which I can exist then I do not exist, and so am in no fit state to "want" things. In summation: I didn't ask to exist.

Of course I don't want to work to make anything better.... Unless it is necessary. I would rather not work than work for something, that's just efficiency.

Me, me, me, indeed, it's called universal ethical egoism.

So I ask of you: what does God expect me to do? How do you "know" He expects this of me?
 

dan

Well-Known Member
sparc872 said:
Why Michel? Why do you see this as sad? I guess you could take it as a failed attempt at a joke. But you could also take it as an honest try at getting God to listen. I know there are a lot of people in the world that see all of this suffering as pointless. Should we not expect a reply from God? What do you do when you pray to God? Do you ask him for you help and forgiveness? Do you ask him to heal the ills of the world? Why is a petition to do the same thing seen as a bit sad?

God does not make bad things happen. God allows things to help us grow that we view as bad.

Observe the Taoist fable. A man is tending to his animals when a new horse he recently purchased runs away. His neighbor comes by. "What bad luck you have," he says. "Is it bad?" remarks the man. The next day a stranger drops by and asks if they have been missing a horse. The neighbor exclaims, "What good luck!" "What is 'good'?" answered the neighbor. The next day the man's son was trying to break the horse and he was thrown off and his arm was broken. "What horrible fortune," said the neighbor. "Do you think it's horribe?" answered the man. A week later the army marched through town to collect all of able bodied young men to march off to face an invading enemy. The following week the unit was destroyed by the enemy. The man's son could not join the unit because of his arm. "What incredible fortune you have!" exlaimed the neighbor.

Good and bad are in the eye of the beholder. Not only can one thing be good for you and bad for me, but things that I see as bad for me can help more in the end than if I never experienced them. Life is not about being happy all the time, it's about finding eternal happiness.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
sparc872 said:
Is that really the case? Is it wrong to admit you can't do it on your own and that you need Gods help? Isn't that what being a Christian is all about? Realizing that we are fallen, we sinners, and that we need God to save us? What is wrong with asking God for his help, to ask him to alleviate our pains?

The petition says this:

Dear god,
stop making bad things happen, its not funny any more.

This is not a plea for God to come in and help. It is accusing God for everything that is wrong and thinking that He purposely does those things to get a laugh out of it.

He gives you free choice and this is what you choose to do with it?



 

sparc872

Active Member
God does not make bad things happen. God allows things to help us grow that we view as bad.

I understand this.
The petition says this:

Dear god,
stop making bad things happen, its not funny any more.

This is not a plea for God to come in and help. It is accusing God for everything that is wrong and thinking that He purposely does those things to get a laugh out of it.

I know what the petition says. And I understand that it does appear to be blaming God for the problems. I brought it up as a way to talk about petitioning to God in general, not specifically this one.

He gives you free choice and this is what you choose to do with it?

What do you mean by this? What do I choose to do? I never signed that petition, I merely brought it up for a discussion.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
stemann said:
Earned????? How does one earn such a thing? I don't "want" God to create a universe "for" me, because before there is a universe in which I can exist then I do not exist, and so am in no fit state to "want" things. In summation: I didn't ask to exist.

Of course I don't want to work to make anything better.... Unless it is necessary. I would rather not work than work for something, that's just efficiency.

Me, me, me, indeed, it's called universal ethical egoism.

So I ask of you: what does God expect me to do? How do you "know" He expects this of me?

How does one earn such a thing? Choose good, be good, do good, like any child of God would do. Desire a deeper connection with God and it will happen. Doors in your mind will be opened.

You didn't ask to exist? Since you see yourself as a temporary human being then perhaps not. Why waste your time here then? Why not go out and live it up? No internal rules bind you. You can steal and waste and do whatever and feel no remorse because this is the best there is.

The universe is designed to combine a fragment of God (soul) with a uniquely designed personality. It's up to you whether you use this one chance to live for yourself or to advance upon a universal career.

Your soul/conscience is waiting in the background. It is subdued because you choose to ignore it. When your human personality is judged to be selfish the soul will go on to another life experience and you will finally reach your final ending that you so desire and never have to work again.

God expects nothing from you. What are you to the universe? Where one falls a thousand take his place.

You are a mixture of personality traits in a temporary human body. Your personality is combined with a soul but this connection is purposely feint so we can experience a life with more free will.

Most do not know that God is with them always, connected to Him through the soul. He knows everything because He sees it happen from every point of view. Some develop this connection and actually experience feedback that they believe are past life experiences.

And there are others who can actually hear the communication taking place between the soul and God but the frequency is too high to be understood.

"I wonder what that ringing in my ears is?"
 

Tigress

Working-Class W*nch.
Super Universe said:
This is not a plea for God to come in and help. It is accusing God for everything that is wrong and thinking that He purposely does those things to get a laugh out of it.

He gives you free choice and this is what you choose to do with it?

Why not accuse God? Is it not God who created everything, thereby setting things in motion? Is God not then even partially responsible?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Tigress said:
Why not accuse God? Is it not God who created everything, thereby setting things in motion? Is God not then even partially responsible?


If you create a universe of matter and energy, then place life and give it complete free will then of course you know that there are a multitude of things that can happen.

But what child blames their parents for giving them life? Only the most stubborn, angry, and unreasonable.

God is not even partially responsible because you do not have to be here, it is your choice.
 

evearael

Well-Known Member
It appears I am in the minority, but I found it amusing. It is certainly not a prayer I would utter, however. I tend to pray for things rather than against things and offer praises rather than criticisms.
 

sparc872

Active Member
How does one earn such a thing? Choose good, be good, do good, like any child of God would do. Desire a deeper connection with God and it will happen. Doors in your mind will be opened.

I don't need to be a child of God to be moral and do good things. I don't need a believe in anything supernatural to live righteously.
You didn't ask to exist? Since you see yourself as a temporary human being then perhaps not. Why waste your time here then? Why not go out and live it up? No internal rules bind you. You can steal and waste and do whatever and feel no remorse because this is the best there is.

No, we cannot. Whether or not we desired to exist, we do. The fact that we do exist binds us to rules and laws. Obviously we are bound by the law of gravity. Just because we did not choose to live in a wolrd with gravity doesn't mean we can go out and not have it. Things are how they are.

Why do you consider stealing and wasting living it up? Is that the life you would live if you were not bound by God? I sure hope not. Remorse is a feeling, we feel it when we do something that goes against our beliefs. I would feel remorse if I went out and stole something. I hope you would too.

"I wonder what that ringing in my ears is?"

I believe that is called tinnitus :)
 

mr.guy

crapsack
su said:
God is not even partially responsible because you do not have to be here, it is your choice.
Based on this, it may be safe to suppose that god is pretty irrelevant, really.
 

stemann

Time Bandit
Super Universe said:
How does one earn such a thing? Choose good, be good, do good, like any child of God would do. Desire a deeper connection with God and it will happen. Doors in your mind will be opened.

Seriously, now, just stop it. Let my try and be as clear as possible:

I have no idea who or what God is. How am I supposed to know what He commands as "Good"? It could just as easily be "be nice to people" as "be horrible to people."

Super Universe said:
You didn't ask to exist? Since you see yourself as a temporary human being then perhaps not. Why waste your time here then? Why not go out and live it up? No internal rules bind you. You can steal and waste and do whatever and feel no remorse because this is the best there is.

Ha ha! Now I have you. I agree that no moral "rules" bind me, since there can be no such thing as moral "rules." However, why should I steal? I would probably get caught, put in prison, live a less desirable life than if I upheld the law and acted as a model citizen. This has nothing whatsoever to do with morality.

I do "live it up," however, not in the hedonist sense that you were implying. I do whatever I perceive will bring me the most happiness in the future. Since I do not believe in free will, I believe that all humans are bound also to do this.

Super Universe said:
The universe is designed to combine a fragment of God (soul) with a uniquely designed personality. It's up to you whether you use this one chance to live for yourself or to advance upon a universal career.

I take the fact that I don't know whether or not this is the case and say, "How am I supposed to consider what I 'should' do when I have no way of discerning what it is that I 'should' do?"

Super Universe said:
Your soul/conscience is waiting in the background. It is subdued because you choose to ignore it. When your human personality is judged to be selfish the soul will go on to another life experience and you will finally reach your final ending that you so desire and never have to work again.

I don't choose to ignore it. I have been looking my whole life, and continue so to do. That is part of why I am here; to learn.

And: Can I take your quote to mean that you think 'selfish' is what I should not be?

Super Universe said:
God expects nothing from you. What are you to the universe? Where one falls a thousand take his place.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Super Universe said:
You are a mixture of personality traits in a temporary human body. Your personality is combined with a soul but this connection is purposely feint so we can experience a life with more free will.

So... what makes us "choose" to act in any certain way rather than in any other certain way?

Super Universe said:
Most do not know that God is with them always, connected to Him through the soul. He knows everything because He sees it happen from every point of view. Some develop this connection and actually experience feedback that they believe are past life experiences.

Like I said, I have my whole life been trying to connect in some way with God. So far I have not to my knowledge achieved it. This does not mean that I will give up the search or assume that he does not exist.

Super Universe said:
And there are others who can actually hear the communication taking place between the soul and God but the frequency is too high to be understood.

"I wonder what that ringing in my ears is?"

How am I supposed to know that it is God?

Super Universe said:
But what child blames their parents for giving them life?

This question is nonsensical. How can a parent "give" a child life, since before this happens, there is no child to which life can be "given."

Super Universe said:
God is not even partially responsible because you do not have to be here, it is your choice.

Only through suicide.

sparc872 said:
Why do you consider stealing and wasting living it up? Is that the life you would live if you were not bound by God? I sure hope not. Remorse is a feeling, we feel it when we do something that goes against our beliefs. I would feel remorse if I went out and stole something. I hope you would too.

A word-perfect explanation of how I myself feel, except for "beliefs."
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
sparc872 said:
I don't need to be a child of God to be moral and do good things. I don't need a believe in anything supernatural to live righteously.

No, we cannot. Whether or not we desired to exist, we do. The fact that we do exist binds us to rules and laws. Obviously we are bound by the law of gravity. Just because we did not choose to live in a wolrd with gravity doesn't mean we can go out and not have it. Things are how they are.

Why do you consider stealing and wasting living it up? Is that the life you would live if you were not bound by God? I sure hope not. Remorse is a feeling, we feel it when we do something that goes against our beliefs. I would feel remorse if I went out and stole something. I hope you would too.

I believe that is called tinnitus :)

Remorse? You feel remorse? How is this possible if everything is such a huge accident? How is this something that evolution could even or would even create?

It's definately an evolved feeling in sentient beings. How could a lion survive if it felt remorse after it ate a young antelope?

What do you give the credit to for this sad feeling you have when you have done something wrong? Is it something you give yourself credit for? Or is it just another strange accident of the universe?

Gravity? That was one crucial accident. Sure don't know what we would do without that one.

Those accidents sure are strange.
 

stemann

Time Bandit
Super Universe said:
Remorse? You feel remorse? How is this possible if everything is such a huge accident? How is this something that evolution could even or would even create?

It's definately an evolved feeling in sentient beings. How could a lion survive if it felt remorse after it ate a young antelope?

What do you give the credit to for this sad feeling you have when you have done something wrong? Is it something you give yourself credit for? Or is it just another strange accident of the universe?

Gravity? That was one crucial accident. Sure don't know what we would do without that one.

Those accidents sure are strange.

1) Learn something about evolution. Anything. Learn it from an evolutionist, rather than a creationist. Better yet, learn it from any good scientist, regardless of their personal beliefs.

2) Why would I feel remorse if all morality was simply obedience to God? I would only feel remorse because He is disappointed in me; if I wasn't being selfish, I wouldn't care how He thought of me.

3) Gravity is not an accident.

4) These accidents are sure not strange. Learn the tenets of cosmogony.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
stemann said:
1) Learn something about evolution. Anything. Learn it from an evolutionist, rather than a creationist. Better yet, learn it from any good scientist, regardless of their personal beliefs.

2) Why would I feel remorse if all morality was simply obedience to God? I would only feel remorse because He is disappointed in me; if I wasn't being selfish, I wouldn't care how He thought of me.

3) Gravity is not an accident.

4) These accidents are sure not strange. Learn the tenets of cosmogony.

Scientists watch and deduce. They see things expanding so they say it all came from a single beginning. "An expansion!" They shout and hurry to publish it as if they've created it themselves.

Glory be to the scientists! Even though they've never created a thing.

Hmm, an expansion? Expansion from what?

So I should learn about evolution, should I? Perhaps you could explain it all to me? Lets start by you answering the question this time, though I have my doubts. How does evolution create a feeling of remorse in a being? Where is the advantage?

Gravity is no accident? I agree 100%.

So if I learn these tenets of comogony then I will suddenly have what? An understanding of how a million random things formed perfectly in the precise order to create atoms, matter and energy, space/time, gravity, all to support life, and not just life but sentient life.

Your science doesn't add up. Too many impossibilities stacked on top of each other.

 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
sparc872 said:
I understand this.


I know what the petition says. And I understand that it does appear to be blaming God for the problems. I brought it up as a way to talk about petitioning to God in general, not specifically this one.



What do you mean by this? What do I choose to do? I never signed that petition, I merely brought it up for a discussion.
God is petitioned every day by those who pray to him. Moses petitioned God to part the Red Sea, and God told him to do it himself. God wants us to connect to him by realizing that he is within us, not outside. He creates from within you, not from above you or beyond you. The reality you exist in was created by you, and you chose to be here. You chose your parents and you chose your circumstance. If I were to petition God it would be to lift all the veils of illusion that this material world causes so that everyone could see the TRUTH that lies just beyond our physical senses. Once you become aware of what is within you, it cannot be denied, or doubted, or questioned, it just IS.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Super Universe said:
Remorse? You feel remorse? How is this possible if everything is such a huge accident? How is this something that evolution could even or would even create?

It's definately an evolved feeling in sentient beings. How could a lion survive if it felt remorse after it ate a young antelope?

What do you give the credit to for this sad feeling you have when you have done something wrong? Is it something you give yourself credit for? Or is it just another strange accident of the universe?

Gravity? That was one crucial accident. Sure don't know what we would do without that one.

Those accidents sure are strange.

Super Universe said:

So I should learn about evolution, should I? Perhaps you could explain it all to me? Lets start by you answering the question this time, though I have my doubts. How does evolution create a feeling of remorse in a being? Where is the advantage?
Of course a lion would not survive if it felt remorse for eating an antelope, this is the way it survives. Human beings survive by creating complex societies and through co-operation. Theft in most human cultures is not an effective survival strategy. They are usually caught and punished. Individuals who feel no remorse for theft are generally less likely to pass on their genes.

There are exceptions of course. In our society for instance it has long been more advantages to be a white collar/wall street kind of thief. Such individuals have succeeded in becoming wealthy and successful and have passed on their genes. If this continues for long enough remorse for white collar crime will actually be an evolutionary disadvantage and we will see more and more people who commit this kind of crime without remorse. And this is likely just what we are seeing.

Also keep in mind that variation within the species is an important evolutionary advantage. If remorse for theft did come about through evolution you would still expect to see some individuals who feel no remorse at all, some who feel very little and steal anyway, and the majority who feel enough remorse about such actions to refrain from them. This is because although generally theft is a disadvantage for a human individual trying to survive in society, but it can in some instances be an advantage. So evolution allows for this variation within the species. It is no accident.

p.s. this could all be explained better and more completely if you consulted a behavioral biologist.
 

stemann

Time Bandit
Mr. Super Universe, allow me to introduce you to Mr. fantôme profane.

Oh, I see you have already met. How convenient for me.

Super Universe said:
Scientists watch and deduce. They see things expanding so they say it all came from a single beginning. "An expansion!" They shout and hurry to publish it as if they've created it themselves.

Attack the character specifics of a scientist. Great debate technique, you really made a good point... although I didn't quite understand what it was, could you please reiterate?

Super Universe said:
So I should learn about evolution, should I? Perhaps you could explain it all to me? Lets start by you answering the question this time, though I have my doubts. How does evolution create a feeling of remorse in a being? Where is the advantage?

Of course a lion would not survive if it felt remorse for eating an antelope, this is the way it survives. Human beings survive by creating complex societies and through co-operation. Theft in most human cultures is not an effective survival strategy. They are usually caught and punished. Individuals who feel no remorse for theft are generally less likely to pass on their genes.

There are exceptions of course. In our society for instance it has long been more advantages to be a white collar/wall street kind of thief. Such individuals have succeeded in becoming wealthy and successful and have passed on their genes. If this continues for long enough remorse for white collar crime will actually be an evolutionary disadvantage and we will see more and more people who commit this kind of crime without remorse. And this is likely just what we are seeing.


Also keep in mind that variation within the species is an important evolutionary advantage. If remorse for theft did come about through evolution you would still expect to see some individuals who feel no remorse at all, some who feel very little and steal anyway, and the majority who feel enough remorse about such actions to refrain from them. This is because although generally theft is a disadvantage for a human individual trying to survive in society, but it can in some instances be an advantage. So evolution allows for this variation within the species. It is no accident.

p.s. this could all be explained better and more completely if you consulted a behavioral biologist.

This "not working" malarky is paying off already, people are starting to do my research for me!

Super Universe said:
Gravity is no accident? I agree 100%.

Good, although I suppose we probably disagree past this point.

Super Universe said:
So if I learn these tenets of comogony then I will suddenly have what? An understanding of how a million random things formed perfectly in the precise order to create atoms, matter and energy, space/time, gravity, all to support life, and not just life but sentient life.

Cosmogony really is not directly related to evolution.

AND, since we are on the subject, I have no doubt that it was not the case that "a million random things formed perfectly in the precise order to create atoms, matter and energy, space/time, gravity, all to support life, and not just life but sentient life," if I thought that this either had to be the case or God existed, then I would be in church at this very moment (although it is technically not correct to synthesise God and any certain religion; I was merely using the phrase for emphasis).

Super Universe said:
Your science doesn't add up. Too many impossibilities stacked on top of each other.

Four hundred years ago, Galileo was treated with not a great amount of kindness for suggesting that satellites orbit Jupiter.

"How can this be?" The church elders asked, "Everything revolves around the world. We know that. It says so in [Book whatever]."

Now, they proved that the world was flat:

"If the world was round, and orbits the sun," They asked, "How come people don't fall off the other side??? Your science, Galileo, Copernicus, doesn't add up."

They had no understanding, nor any way to understand, how people didn't fall off the other side of the world. Similarly we presumably don't perfectly understand how abiogenesis and evolution occured. But it is not logical to say, "..... I can't find an explanation right now. God must have done it."

EnhancedSpirit said:
God is petitioned every day by those who pray to him. Moses petitioned God to part the Red Sea, and God told him to do it himself. God wants us to connect to him by realizing that he is within us, not outside. He creates from within you, not from above you or beyond you. The reality you exist in was created by you, and you chose to be here. You chose your parents and you chose your circumstance. If I were to petition God it would be to lift all the veils of illusion that this material world causes so that everyone could see the TRUTH that lies just beyond our physical senses. Once you become aware of what is within you, it cannot be denied, or doubted, or questioned, it just IS.

This is one of the more logical beliefs about God. Thank you, ES.

Fantôme, frubals for you in exchange for your effort.
 

onmybelief

Active Member
sparc872 said:
Is that really the case? Is it wrong to admit you can't do it on your own and that you need Gods help? Isn't that what being a Christian is all about? Realizing that we are fallen, we sinners, and that we need God to save us? What is wrong with asking God for his help, to ask him to alleviate our pains?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking God for help. I do all the time. It's just that when we don't get the helpwe want most just complain and moan and groan saying "Oh, God doesn't listen." or "God doesn't exist. If He did he wouldn't allow this thing to happen." We (humans I mean) have no perspective. We don't look at our situation(s) from God's point of view. And I admit this is a difficult task to do but God knows what is best.
 

Simon Gnosis

Active Member
Children get murdered.

Hurricanes destroy entire towns.

Whole races can be exterminated.

Terrible things can happen.

Buts it all part of the system.
The dynamic of existance.

If a massive asteroid had not slammed into earth killing all but a few % of life forms all those aeons ago we humans might never have evolved from our tiny mammalian ancestors, freed from the yoke of dinosaur rule.

Bad things happen but so do good things the trick is realising that both things are essential for the universe to operate.

If we couldnt feel pain we would not know we where injured.
If tigers could not tear apart sweet little lambs they would cease to exist.
If people could not understand suffering then they could not know joy.
If stars cannot blow up when they die then the rules that dictate how they are born would have to change, and could they change?

When tragedies occur I am not saying we should simply accept them, I am saying we should learn from them, and turn the tragedy into something positive, maybe just simply to stop it from happening again.

I once declared to some friends that I supported the death penalty as I had recently read about a particularly disturbing murder of a little boy.
My anger and fury with God was so white hot at the time that I stormed into my living room took my KJ bible from the shelf and slammed it as hard as I could into the wall, after reading the newspaper.
I would have sworn loyalty to Satan himself in an instant just to be alone with the murderer in a locked room for 10 minutes...
Such was the horrific power of my empathy and imagination...

But then one of my friends said 'In a world of infinite possibilty sh*t happens'
He then said 'Ok kill the murderer, he does deserve it really, I mean people are aborted or killed in wars all the time for far less, but will the next one give himself up so easily to the police or be cooperative when recovering bodies if he knows he is going to the gas chamber or the noose?'

Perhaps not...so to learn from the tragedy I learnt that terminating psychos while satisfying in the short term is not conducive to the long term benefit of society.
 
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