Pe****ta Primacy, Palistinian Prophet, & why Jesus didn't speak Syriac

[Shermana]

Is it possible that the Gospel of Thomas was not originally written in Greek?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Is it possible that the Gospel of Thomas was not originally written in Greek?

Honestly, I'm not familiar enough with the scholarship here to say more than that the consensus is it was. My Coptic is terrible (I started learning a year ago but never consistently and it is really awful) so I can't tell you about the text itself and although I know there are some Greek fragments of it I can't argue based on my familiarity with the extant manuscripts alone anything regarding the textual basis. I do know what the consensus is, as well as some arguments about the relationship between Thomas and the synoptics, but I can't really offer anything here. My apologies.

 

[oldbadger]

Although there are some issues with Victor Alexander's translation of the Pe****ta, you might find some of his commentary here of interest:

Hello again......

Oh dear....... There's problems with this. Are you suggesting that Victor's translation comes from the earliest, the first, the original record of Yeshua's mission?

Don't worry about the long-winded academic waffle....... it can't be correct in any case....

If you read and study and re-read, say, G-Mark, you come to sense additions which could be termed 'evangelical additions', or 'vigour' or 'culture', etc.. Also, the earliest translations do not include the last verses of G-Mark.

Your Victor's translation includes the lot. :yes:

For me that's over. It's dead. :no:

It's over.......

 

[godnotgod]

Are you suggesting that Victor's translation comes from the earliest, the first, the original record of Yeshua's mission?

Not only is that his claim, but that the original manuscripts are in the hands of the Ancient Church of the East.

Mr. Alexander explains:

In 1995, I finally began to translate the Aramaic Bible, at my wife's instigation, and through her support. After I had translated the Gospel of Mark, I gave copies to a few pastors in the US, but I was rebuffed. I was mystified. "Don't they want to know the truth?" I asked myself.

Providentially, I ran into an old Ashurai priest in Central California one day. He told me that the Western Bibles were all mistranslated. He told me about the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures and sold me a copy of the New Testament from the Leeshana Ahtiqua (Old Tongue). Later I found a copy of the Old Testament in the Ancient Aramaic that was passed on through my family. From the first comparisons of the two different versions, the English and the Ancient Aramaic Bibles, I realized that there were significant differences.

It has taken me twelve years now to fully understand that the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures were never translated, not even into the modern Aramaic vernacular. I realized then why the Princeton Theological Seminary had refused to publish my grandfather's Kurdish Bible: it was translated from the Presbyterian Bible word for word. The Presbyterian Bible was translated from the Greek and Latin versions of the Bible, commonly referred to as the Greek Original and the Latin Vulgate, respectively. In fact all the Bibles are derivatives of these two versions, neither of which are the authentic Scriptures. The top leaders of all the Western churches are not interested in the True Scriptures; they have held on to their own versions of the Bible because they are prejudiced. The Princeton Press at the time knew very well that my grandfather's translation was made from the Presbyterian Bible and that it was not an authentic translation of the original Ancient Aramaic Scriptures.

The Presbyterian missionaries did not even make an effort to translate the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures for the Syriac-speaking people of Urmia; they did not even translate from the Greek Original, they simply translated from the American Standard Version into the modern Aramaic vernacular of the people there. How do I know this? Because I have both copies: the English language Bible that they translated from and the Syriac-Aramaic Bible they published in 1897 in Urmia, Iran. To this day, the American Missionaries claim that they have already translated the Bible for the Assyrians from their own language and that it is essentially the same thing.

When I inquire from some of the Church of the East priests of today if the Ancient Aramaic Bible has been ever translated into modern Aramaic, they reply, "Why should we do it? We understand it in its present form?" Of course, they don't. If they did, why do they still use the American Presbyterian translation in Syriac?

August 10, 2006

http://www.corlisdees.org/why_victor_alexander____bio_

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

It has taken me twelve years now to fully understand that the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures were never translated, not even into the modern Aramaic vernacular.

The Syriac New Testament: Translated into English from the Pe****ta Version. That's a translation from over a 100 years ago. It took 4 seconds in google books to find it available for free. There are multiple others and an entire academic institute at Leiden devoted solely to Pe****ta studies and translations. The above is another lie.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That - ladies and gentlemen - is how it's done.

 

[oldbadger]

Not only is that his claim, but that the original manuscripts are in the hands of the Ancient Church of the East.

Why would the Ancient Church of the East have a bible which explains (In Matthew) to Greeks and Latins ....that Golgotha means the 'place of the skull'?


Nah...... can't be the truth. I think the guy is a fibber....

 

[godnotgod]

The Syriac New Testament: Translated into English from the Pe****ta Version. That's a translation from over a 100 years ago. It took 4 seconds in google books to find it available for free. There are multiple others and an entire academic institute at Leiden devoted solely to Pe****ta studies and translations. The above is another lie.

First of all, your link is not for a translation of the Pe****ta, but of the Pe****to. It states that right on the first page of the text.

Secondly, according to the site 'Syriac Orthodox Resources':

"In the early fifth century, the long process of revising the Old Syriac came to a halt, culminating in the Pe****to version. Hence, the Pe****to is not a new translation, but rather a revision of the Old Syriac Gospels."

and thirdly,


"The Old Syriac is known in Syriac as Evangelion Dampharshe meaning 'Gospel of the Separated [Evangelists]', in order to distinguish it from the Diatessaron, 'Gospel of the Mixed'. This translation was made at some point between the late second century and the early fourth century by a number of translators. Rather a literal translation, this was a rather free translation from the Greek. A series of revisions took place over a long period of time which brought the Old Syriac into closer line with the Greek."

Syriac Translations of the Bible: Evangelion Dampharshe (The Old Syriac Translation)

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

First of all, your link is not for a translation of the Pe****ta, but of the Pe****to. It states that right on the first page of the text.

You're a Wikipedia person, you couldn't have even checked the wiki page before posting?
Translations of the Pe****ta
James Murdock- The New Testament, Or, The Book of the Holy Gospel of Our Lord and God, Jesus the Messiah.
John Wesley Etheridge- A Literal Translation of the Four Gospels From the Peschito, or Ancient Syriac and The Apostolical Acts and Epistles From the Peschito, or Ancient Syriac: To Which Are Added, the Remaining Epistles and The Book of Revelation, After a Later Syriac Text.
George M. Lamsa- The Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text (1933)- The only complete English translation of both the Old and New Testaments according to the Pe****ta text. Lamsa was a native Syriac speaker. This translation is better known as the Lamsa Bible. He also wrote several other books on the Pe****ta and Aramaic Primacy such as Gospel Light, New Testament Origin, and Idioms of the Bible, along with a New Testament commentary. Several well-known evangelists used or endorsed the Lamsa Bible, such as Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, and William M. Branham.
Andrew Gabriel Roth- Aramaic English New Testament (AENT), which includes a literal translation of the Pe****ta on the left side pages with the Aramaic text in Hebrew letters on the right side with Roth's commentary. The AENT is basically a revision of the Younan Interlinear New Testament (from Matthew 1 to Acts 15) and the James Murdock's (Acts 15 and onward).[15]
Janet Magiera- Aramaic Pe****ta New Testament Translation, Aramaic Pe****ta New Testament Translation- Messianic Version, and Aramaic Pe****ta Vertical Interlinear (in three volumes). Magiera is connected to George Lamsa.
Reverend Glenn David Bauscher- The Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament (1st edition 2006), Psalms, Proverbs & Ecclesiastes (4th edition 2011) [16] the basis for The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English (2007, 6th edition 2011). Another literal translation that comes as an interlinear New Testament (with Hebrew characters), and a smoother English version. Bauscher translated from the Western Pe****to text.[17]
Victor Alexander- Aramaic New Testament and Disciples New Testament. Alexander is a native speaker of Syriac.
The Way International- The Aramaic Interlinear Bible
Paul Younan, a native Syriac speaker, is currently working on an interlinear translation of the Pe****ta into English.
Herb Jahn of Exegesis Bibles translated the Western Pe****to in "Aramaic New Covenant".
Arch-corepiscopos Curien Kaniamparambil- Vishudhagrandham Pe****ta translation (including Old and New Testaments) in Malayalam, the language of Kerala.
In Spanish exists Biblia Pe****ta en Español (Spanish Pe****ta Bible) by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville, TN. U. S. A., published 2007

(emphasis added)

Secondly, according to the site 'Syriac Orthodox Resources':

Pe****to and Pe****ta are simply spelling variants of the same word. They're from the passive participle of a Syriac word meaning "stretched out". There are only a few known Syriac traditions: Old Syriac, Pe****ta, Philoxean, Harclean, & Palestinian. The Pe****ta is neither the oldest nor the most important from a early Christian history POV. But thanks almost entirely to Lamsa, for some reason everybody who's nobody thinks it's some magical Aramaic collection when
1) It's Syriac, a different but related Semitic language
2) It's not even the only Syriac translation of the Greek.
There's nothing particularly special about it. The Cureton manuscripts are older and also "Aramaic" (Syriac).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So someone needs DR, PHD, BS after their names to teach? Wow my Dad fought in WW2 joined when he was seventeen never went to college or taught but taught me how to drive a car. I guess he wasn't valid to do that.

Yes, but did he teach you Aramaic? (or Syriac, or Greek, or Coptic)

Fighting a war is one thing (respect - my late grandfather fought at Normandy). But you know that they don't put the rocket scientists on the front lines.

Some things actually require disciplined study. Fighting and driving don't.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But thanks almost entirely to Lamsa, for some reason everybody who's nobody thinks it's some magical Aramaic collection when
1) It's Syriac, a different but related Semitic language
2) It's not even the only Syriac translation of the Greek.
There's nothing particularly special about it. The Cureton manuscripts are older and also "Aramaic" (Syriac).

I'm afraid that the only evidence our friend is willing to consider comes from crappy websites. Surely he takes better care online when shopping for a car, buying a house, or doing his job.


Anyhow, I'm not convinced that our friend is actually thinking about the stuff that he posts. I might be hopelessly optimistic, but I believe that if he took two seconds to read and think about the stuff that he's spamming, he'd know he was missing this stuff by a million miles.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I'm afraid that the only evidence our friend is willing to consider comes from crappy websites.

So I should be creating websites and linking to them?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So I should be creating websites and linking to them?

It would only work if you agreed with him.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Yes, but did he teach you Aramaic? (or Syriac, or Greek, or Coptic)

Fighting a war is one thing (respect - my late grandfather fought at Normandy). But you know that they don't put the rocket scientists on the front lines.

Some things actually require disciplined study. Fighting and driving don't.

Both my grandfathers served in the US Army during WWII, but my father's father (who, according to Shermana whom I trust here, makes me Jewish) wins of the 2 because he
1) won the bronze star
2) served in the CIA too
&
3) was a Cornell professor of languages

But seriously, I didn't mean to imply that one needs an education to teach. Far from it. Certain things, though (as you say) do require academic study. And when it comes to the details of NT textual criticism, NT transmission, and languages study is something of a requirement.

 

[godnotgod]

[/COLOR]
You're a Wikipedia person, you couldn't have even checked the wiki page before posting?
Translations of the Pe****ta
James Murdock- The New Testament, Or, The Book of the Holy Gospel of Our Lord and God, Jesus the Messiah.
John Wesley Etheridge- A Literal Translation of the Four Gospels From the Peschito, or Ancient Syriac and The Apostolical Acts and Epistles From the Peschito, or Ancient Syriac: To Which Are Added, the Remaining Epistles and The Book of Revelation, After a Later Syriac Text.
George M. Lamsa- The Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text (1933)- The only complete English translation of both the Old and New Testaments according to the Pe****ta text. Lamsa was a native Syriac speaker. This translation is better known as the Lamsa Bible. He also wrote several other books on the Pe****ta and Aramaic Primacy such as Gospel Light, New Testament Origin, and Idioms of the Bible, along with a New Testament commentary. Several well-known evangelists used or endorsed the Lamsa Bible, such as Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, and William M. Branham.
Andrew Gabriel Roth- Aramaic English New Testament (AENT), which includes a literal translation of the Pe****ta on the left side pages with the Aramaic text in Hebrew letters on the right side with Roth's commentary. The AENT is basically a revision of the Younan Interlinear New Testament (from Matthew 1 to Acts 15) and the James Murdock's (Acts 15 and onward).[15]
Janet Magiera- Aramaic Pe****ta New Testament Translation, Aramaic Pe****ta New Testament Translation- Messianic Version, and Aramaic Pe****ta Vertical Interlinear (in three volumes). Magiera is connected to George Lamsa.
Reverend Glenn David Bauscher- The Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament (1st edition 2006), Psalms, Proverbs & Ecclesiastes (4th edition 2011) [16] the basis for The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English (2007, 6th edition 2011). Another literal translation that comes as an interlinear New Testament (with Hebrew characters), and a smoother English version. Bauscher translated from the Western Pe****to text.[17]
Victor Alexander- Aramaic New Testament and Disciples New Testament. Alexander is a native speaker of Syriac.
The Way International- The Aramaic Interlinear Bible
Paul Younan, a native Syriac speaker, is currently working on an interlinear translation of the Pe****ta into English.
Herb Jahn of Exegesis Bibles translated the Western Pe****to in "Aramaic New Covenant".
Arch-corepiscopos Curien Kaniamparambil- Vishudhagrandham Pe****ta translation (including Old and New Testaments) in Malayalam, the language of Kerala.
In Spanish exists Biblia Pe****ta en Español (Spanish Pe****ta Bible) by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville, TN. U. S. A., published 2007

(emphasis added)




Pe****to and Pe****ta are simply spelling variants of the same word. They're from the passive participle of a Syriac word meaning "stretched out". There are only a few known Syriac traditions: Old Syriac, Pe****ta, Philoxean, Harclean, & Palestinian. The Pe****ta is neither the oldest nor the most important from a early Christian history POV. But thanks almost entirely to Lamsa, for some reason everybody who's nobody thinks it's some magical Aramaic collection when
1) It's Syriac, a different but related Semitic language
2) It's not even the only Syriac translation of the Greek.
There's nothing particularly special about it. The Cureton manuscripts are older and also "Aramaic" (Syriac).

I'll dismiss the differences between Pe****tA-O for now, but just note that some consider them minor, while others see them as significant enough (O being Western; A being Eastern) to prefer one over the other.* I was merely pointing out that an error had been made. In addition, I thought I had previously read that the Pe****to was a missal, rather than a Bible.

The point Alexander was making was that the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures were never translated. He wasn't referring to the Old Syriac, which had been translated from the Greek, and then into Aramaic as the Pe****to. That is the scenario according to some researchers, while the notion that the Pe****to is earlier than the Greek texts is the case according to others.

*see discussion here: http://www.pe****ta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2973

 

[godnotgod]

So I should be creating websites and linking to them?

Do you post at Pe****ta Aramaic/English Interlinear New Testament

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I was merely pointing out that an error had been made.

It hadn't. That's the Pe****ta. Take a look at the Syriac texts and the commentary on the translation and note that the Syriac glosses are the same in the commentary as they are in the "original" Pe****ta text.

In addition, I thought I had previously read that the Pe****to was a missal, rather than a Bible.

It's neither. It's the name given to 2 different Syriac manuscript traditions. One is a Syriac version of the OT and the other the NT. What constitutes the Pe****ta OT is up for some debate. The Pe****ta NT, however, is far clearer as we not only have thousands upon thousands of Greek originals to go with but textual families in Latin, Syriac, Gothic, Coptic, etc.

The point Alexander was making was that the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures were never translated. He wasn't referring to the Old Syriac, which had been translated from the Greek, and then into Aramaic as the Pe****to

There are no "ancient Aramaic scriptures". The Pe****ta manuscripts were written in Syriac. All extant manuscripts that are claimed to be "Aramaic" by Pe****ta primacists are in Syriac. We have no Aramaic manuscripts of the gospels. We have Syriac manuscripts, divided into various textual families which include the Pe****ta.

*see discussion here

Great. They're complicating the extant Syriac manuscripts even further? Why? Which of the nearly 400 Syriac manuscripts categorized as the Pe****ta are supposed to be the Pe****ta? According to knowledgeable internet whatevers on Pe****ta primacy websites?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That is the scenario according to some researchers

... both of them are clowns.

 

[godnotgod]

... both of them are clowns.

Sorta like 'Las Vegas Elvis Impersonator' kinda clowns?

So when's your next road trip? I've saved enough money now for tickets to your next extravaganza.

 

[godnotgod]

IThere are no "ancient Aramaic scriptures". The Pe****ta manuscripts were written in Syriac. All extant manuscripts that are claimed to be "Aramaic" by Pe****ta primacists are in Syriac. We have no Aramaic manuscripts of the gospels. We have Syriac manuscripts, divided into various textual families which include the Pe****ta.

Well, he's claiming they exist.