Personal deity and suffering/evil

[Sand Dancer]

If you're cementing your idea of god, why would this god have to allow suffering? I would think it's your view of god and not someone else's.

Do you have to try to reconcile your belief with a god defined by judgement?

Why not love and action-oriented prayer?

For example, if you want to help the homeless then the answer to your prayer is your action and their gratitude etc. Does it need to be "mystic" for prayers to be answered?

Maybe get away from someone else's idea of god and form a relationship with a god you see best understood and lived for the health and spirit of other people and yourself.

The suffering such as disease that is not caused by lifestyle choices or suffering where people can't help themselves, like in a dictatorship.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Well I think the answer to your confusion comes from your stated religion 'pantheism'. Here are my thoughts on the Problem of Evil question.

Problem of Evil proponents look at good/bad events as happening randomly to people. Eastern thinkers believe a long series of cause/events (karma) causes things to be the way they are.

I look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things and temporary sufferings make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

Plus, I also use the analogy of creation as some grand expansive multi-dimensional artwork. And human problem of evil proponents view from their little speck and dimensional perspective of the artwork and try to judge the entire artwork. Their view is too limited to be meaningful.

I think to understand the answer to the 'Problem of Evil' we need to start thinking in more eastern ways.

1) That we live for eons in a soul developing process; not one body's duration. In that perspective any suffering in one life is short and temporary in this grander view. And even an unfortunate life and death has lessons for that soul and for those seeing and interacting with the unfortunate life.

2) That such things are not as random as they appear. There is chain of cause and effect through time we can not see.

3) That those currently living an unfortunate life will have victory 'enlightenment' at the end of the challenges.

4) That it is God at the core of everything and it is He who experiences the temporary good and bad fortunes. It is ultimately not Him imposing it on other separate beings. It is His play/drama where He separates Himself from Himself and returns Himself to Himself but this play ends with a happy ending for all. In any great play/drama there is always drama/suffering in the middle.

Great point. The only issue is that, say, if a baby is born with a horrible deformity, is that the baby's karma or the parents? It effects both of them.

 

[George-ananda]

Great point. The only issue is that, say, if a baby is born with a horrible deformity, is that the baby's karma or the parents? It effects both of them.

It could be either and we can never know from our perspective the deeper 'why'.

Now, I'll share something I heard from spiritual sources I respect. I heard many souls are more eager to be born in these horribly deformed or diseased babies' physical bodies than normal bodies because of the experiences and sharing of love that can still occur. Yes, this is the opposite of what we think from our physical perspective.

I am thinking from the spiritual side these physical bodies are seen as short temporary things where lessons are to be experienced. So the Problem of Evil seems to flip the further we get from our physical-only perspective.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The suffering such as disease that is not caused by lifestyle choices or suffering where people can't help themselves, like in a dictatorship.

A lot of diseases are caused by lifestyle choices and the result is suffering.

Those diseases and conditions (not suffering-that's the result) that aren't from lifestyle choices is natural in and of itself. The body does what it does, it's not always nicely shaped pattern.

Why would anyone need to see god as a source of suffering? Couldn't you change your perception of god to where "we don't know" the cause for some diseases but a new perception of god can lead you to help others handle it?

Life is full of health and suffering. It's not a god thing, it's just life. Maybe change your perspective of god and see how he can help you through the suffering by helping others instead of the other way around.

 

[dianaiad]

I totally get those scenarios, but my problem is things like babies being born with horrible deformities/diseases where they die shortly after birth or their care leaves the family with an enormous emotional and financial burden.

How many of those are the results of decisions made by some human? If not the immediate mother, who perhaps drank or smoked or didn't do the right thing during pregnancy, or who had AIDS or something else (and no, I'm not blaming Mom; most such actions are innocent or certainly not taken with intent to harm), then her ancestors, who passed down Tay Sachs?

MOST such things are the result of some human decision, made at some time. The saddest part of all this is that the consequences of human decision don't always fall on the one making the choice. The family who moves to Naples three weeks before they get buried in the ash of Vesuvius may all die...because one member chose to live there and the kids had to come along, willy nilly.

The only thing WE can do, when we face things we think are unfair, is work ourselves to make things more fair. If we are given a child with disabilities to raise, then we raise him/her.

.....and we go help those who are looking for a way to cure/prevent whatever it is that ails the child.

That's our job.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I spent a lot of time as a Christian and it is comforting to think that a god loves, listens and helps.

I spent a huge chunk of my life as a Christian, so I do feel you there. My spirituality took a similar path. I wish you luck!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

As others have alluded to, "evil" is too ambiguous a word to have much of any meaning if we're talking universal scale - which I would assume when we're talking about a "god's" thoughts on "evil."

When we humans use the word "evil," we're specifically invoking the idea of things that hurt humans. This is a rather myopic view of "good/bad." For example, a virus is, in no way, "evil." That would be an extremely sophomoric assessment to make. Yes, contracting a virus is detrimental to human health, and yes, people can even die due to viral infection. But can you entertain the idea that there is "good" also being done in that situation? For example, the human succumbing to the virus means that the virus was able to take over a very significant portion of the human's cell-system, and procreated quite profusely, and very likely infected other human beings that the host came in contact with during the whole process. This is EXACTLY what the virus was attempting to accomplish! In other words, this is quite a win for the virus. This is "good" from the virus' point of view (if it even has one - likely not). But don't you see? "Good" is simply SO subjective, and SO relative to the point of view that the word almost has no meaning until we have that frame of reference. i.e. that we are specifically talking about "good" for humans.

Now, take the perspective of a "god." What is "good" in the eyes of a god? Wouldn't it most likely be anything that was advantageous to the god? And if that is the case, then how do you know that humans are advantageous to the god? How do you know that the god considers what is "good" for humans to be "good" from its perspective as well? How do you know? Because you were told this by someone else? Is that all you have? Perhaps you should think on this topic some more.

 

[ChristineM]

I am trying to cement my view of god and can't get my head around a personal and loving god that allows evil. If a god answers prayer, why is there such suffering of the innocent? If a god can answer prayer, why does it just not let the evil happen to begin with? Help!

The only way you are going to get a personal god who is actually a good guy is invent your own.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah that is the claim made by one of the Gods at least. Remember before that idea became dominating, people believed in many Gods and probably have done for much longer than just in the one God.

The claim was made by one of the Manifestations of God. God does not speak directly to humans, Imo.

I think that it was Zoroaster who first made the claim that there is only one God....
Then after that, Abraham and Moses.

Do you think that what people believe determines what is true?

 

[SigurdReginson]

The only way you are going to get a personal god who is actually a good guy is invent your own.

If that's the case, why even include a god in one's world view? It'd just be a reflection of one's own psyche, and indulgence in it's worship would just seem masturbatory in nature. Would seem rather pointless.

 

[ChristineM]

If that's the case, why even include a god in one's world view? It'd just be a reflection of one's own psyche, and indulgence in it's worship would just seem masturbatory in nature. Would seem rather pointless.

Bingo!!!

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I am trying to cement my view of god and can't get my head around a personal and loving god that allows evil. If a god answers prayer, why is there such suffering of the innocent? If a god can answer prayer, why does it just not let the evil happen to begin with? Help!

Don't let atheists talk to you about this. They'll steer you into the conclusion that such a thing is impossible. When actually, it's very easy.

You remember your parents, right? I imagine at some point they scolded you, right? You did something, and they decided it was probably a good idea to punish you. Suppose they instead let you take the natural result of your actions as punishment. Let's assume stealing.

You steal from the store, so your parents beat you up. You tend to not keep stealing until you get arrested. But still another way to teach you what is wrong with stealing is to have a thief get stolen from.

Now, God is such that as part of this personal relationship, he doesn't spank us, and he doesn't typically leave us to our punishments (remember, merciful God), but he does want us to know that such things do hurt people.

One of the problems with the "problem of evil" is that human beings are delusional, and fancy themselves guiltless. "But I've never taken something from someone!" Yes you have. All of us have taken kindness from others that we didn't deserve. All of us have stolen from ourselves as well, by treating ourselves poorly.

 

[Sand Dancer]

You're right, it makes no sense. It seems like faith is the only answer to the question, with believers saying things like "We can't know the mind of God". The problem is that only really works after someone has convinced themselves it's true.

For your wider question, I'd personally suggest you'd be better off trying to reconcile the fact that a personal god probably doesn't exist, or at least that we can never know for certain either way, and deal with reality as it is.

I have been atheist and it was depressing. I wish I hadn't ever become a Christian, because now I want a god, but I don't want to force myself to believe in one.

 

[ChristineM]

I am trying to cement my view of god and can't get my head around a personal and loving god that allows evil. If a god answers prayer, why is there such suffering of the innocent? If a god can answer prayer, why does it just not let the evil happen to begin with? Help!

Don't let atheists talk to you about this. They'll steer you into the conclusion that such a thing is impossible. When actually, it's very easy.

Don't let theists talk to you about this, they'll steer you to their pet diety and make all sorts of excuses as to why its ok for their god not to care about killing innocent children with natural disease (the gods created) and why they don't listen to the prayers of the starving and suffering.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Have you thought about it maybe human beings themself who have brought the evil and suffering upon themself? and not a God? Suffering in this realm/dimensions way of letting human beings repay their karma, karma rise when we do wrong and virtue rise when we do right.
Yin Yang is same as white and back or karma and virtue.

Yes, but the kind of evil I mean is things like babies born with deformities and diseases that kill them as children, etc.

 

[ChristineM]

I have been atheist and it was depressing. I wish I hadn't ever become a Christian, because now I want a god, but I don't want to force myself to believe in one.

Can i ask, why was being atheist depressing? I have found the exact opposite to be true so this statement confuses me.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Don't let atheists talk to you about this. They'll steer you into the conclusion that such a thing is impossible. When actually, it's very easy.

You remember your parents, right? I imagine at some point they scolded you, right? You did something, and they decided it was probably a good idea to punish you. Suppose they instead let you take the natural result of your actions as punishment. Let's assume stealing.

You steal from the store, so your parents beat you up. You tend to not keep stealing until you get arrested. But still another way to teach you what is wrong with stealing is to have a thief get stolen from.

Now, God is such that as part of this personal relationship, he doesn't spank us, and he doesn't typically leave us to our punishments (remember, merciful God), but he does want us to know that such things do hurt people.

One of the problems with the "problem of evil" is that human beings are delusional, and fancy themselves guiltless. "But I've never taken something from someone!" Yes you have. All of us have taken kindness from others that we didn't deserve. All of us have stolen from ourselves as well, by treating ourselves poorly.

But seemingly innocent people have things happen to them, like babies. What did they do to deserve bad things?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Can i ask, why was being atheist depressing? I have found the exact opposite to be true so this statement confuses me.

Being Christian made me happy thinking there was a deity who cares and answers prayer. I know it's illogical, but I liked the idea of it.

 

[Sand Dancer]

It could be either and we can never know from our perspective the deeper 'why'.

Now, I'll share something I heard from spiritual sources I respect. I heard many souls are more eager to be born in these horribly deformed or diseased babies' physical bodies than normal bodies because of the experiences and sharing of love that can still occur. Yes, this is the opposite of what we think from our physical perspective.

I am thinking from the spiritual side these physical bodies are seen as short temporary things where lessons are to be experienced. So the Problem of Evil seems to flip the further we get from our physical-only perspective.

I get it. Do you think we have a choice in the bodies we are born into? Doesn't karma have that power?

 

[George-ananda]

I get it. Do you think we have a choice in the bodies we are born into? Doesn't karma have that power?

I think we definitely enter this life with a learning/growing purpose planned. And that may very well not be beauty, riches and worldly advantages.

I am not a big fan of the word 'karma'. I just think from the soul level we see learning from dealing with challenges as advantageous.