exchemist
Veteran Member
OK. That gives us context for the passage I quoted.
What context are we offered for these extracts from the Koran?
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Persecution of Christians
- Thread starter Teritos
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- bible christians god jesus
What context are we offered for these extracts from the Koran?
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
Violence in a more immediate threat than hypocrisy.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Funny, I thought Christians were being severely persecuted in the good ol' US of A, given how much the right wing complains the left wants to ban Christianity, they are trying to take God out of schools, and let's not forget the annual War on Christmas™.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I agree with one.
As one has rightly observed the Quran verse 9:5 are best understood from the context verses (some preceding and some following). The verses are not general for all non-believers but are specific, as the context shows, for the Meccans who had declared a war with Muslims, they did not allow them the freedom of speech and freedom of worship, persecuted Muslims at Mecca severely to the extent that the Muslims had to migrate from Mecca to take refuge at Medina- then called Yasrub. Even then they won’t let them (the Muslim immigrants) to live peacefully at Medina and the Meccans continually attacked the Muslims at Medina, a hundred miles away, with large numbers.
The verse and the context verses are specific for such Meccans and not general for the non-believers.
I appreciate one's response, please.
Regards
I wonder if you know what Christians, through their missionary societies and other mechanisms, have done around the world in terms of stripping the believes of hundreds of millions, in many nations, of the religious beliefs that gave them comfort and strength. It's a fascinating -- but immensely sad -- study. You should look into it. (Just so you know, I think that the Christian impulse to "bring the faith to the world" has been the proximate cause of immense suffering and literally millions of deaths.)
Or perhaps you see that as righteous, because -- of course -- only Christians hold the "truth."
firedragon
Veteran Member
For anyone interested.
Cherry Picking
Lo and behold, the Quran has a verse that says kill them Polytheists. Quran chapter 9:5.
The internet is full of lists. You can search and find what you like. So, one goes online and searches for something like “Violence in Islam” of course you will find a list that suits your search. Then you pick one of the Juicy ones and post it here and there feigning you have read the whole Quran and this particular verse sums them all up.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
But oh, what is this thing about the restricted months? Is there a context to this verse?
Let’s go back a few verses. Just a few verses for a start.
9:1 A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a pledge from among the polytheists.
Baraathun/revocation/a freedom of obligation/disassociation.
Why is this disassociation? Is it BECAUSE they are so called Polytheists?
9:3 And a proclamation from God and His messenger to the people, on the day of the greater Pilgrimage: “That God and His messenger are innocent from the polytheists.” If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.
Not really. This is a people who had a treaty with you and they broke it.
Then the Quran says “Except those who kept the pledges in the treaty”. Thus, none of this is about all the polytheists.
9:4 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue the pledge with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous.
So you give them 4 months as a period of reconciliation. They have broken the treaty, you have given them time, and there is no option but to battle.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Then comes the mercy if they are seeking your protection.
9:6 And if any of the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctity. This is because they are a people who do not know.
9:8 How is it that when they come upon you they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and the majority of them are wicked.
They are not called polytheists because of their belief alone, it is because they are cheaters as a people. They broke a pledge and they did not keep their promises.
As long as they are upright with you, you are upright with them. 9:7.
9:12 And if they break their oaths after making their pledge, and they challenge the authority of your Dheen; then you may kill the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.
You are allowed only the leaders of the oath-breaking, aggressive nation who fought you and attacked you first. Which means those who fight you. The governance. Not every tom, dick and harry.
They are the aggressors. They attacked you first. Not that you are to go seeking all over the world and find all the polytheists and kill them. Read.
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.
You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”
You must fight on behalf of the weak
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”
Charities to be used for just cause
9:60 The charities are to go to the poor, and the needy, and those who work to collect them, and those whose hearts have been united, and to free the slaves, and those in debt, and in the cause of God, and the wayfarer. A duty from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
You cannot kill unjustly
17:33 And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory. Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.
2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
Iqra. Read.
2:263 Kind words and forgiveness are far better than a charity that is followed by harm. God is Rich, Compassionate.
2:264 O you who believe, do not nullify your charities with insult and harm; like the one who spends his money in vanity to show off to the people, and he does not believe in God and the Last Day. His example is like a stone on which there is dust, then it is subjected to a heavy rain which leaves it bare. They cannot do anything with what they have earned; and God does not guide the rejecting people.
2:265 And the example of those who spend their money seeking the grace of God, and to save their souls, is like the example of a garden that is on a high ground and is subjected to a heavy rain, and because of that it produces double its crop. And if no heavy rain comes, then it still gives enough. And God is Seer of what you do.
Peace
Cherry Picking
Lo and behold, the Quran has a verse that says kill them Polytheists. Quran chapter 9:5.
The internet is full of lists. You can search and find what you like. So, one goes online and searches for something like “Violence in Islam” of course you will find a list that suits your search. Then you pick one of the Juicy ones and post it here and there feigning you have read the whole Quran and this particular verse sums them all up.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
But oh, what is this thing about the restricted months? Is there a context to this verse?
Let’s go back a few verses. Just a few verses for a start.
9:1 A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a pledge from among the polytheists.
Baraathun/revocation/a freedom of obligation/disassociation.
Why is this disassociation? Is it BECAUSE they are so called Polytheists?
9:3 And a proclamation from God and His messenger to the people, on the day of the greater Pilgrimage: “That God and His messenger are innocent from the polytheists.” If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.
Not really. This is a people who had a treaty with you and they broke it.
Then the Quran says “Except those who kept the pledges in the treaty”. Thus, none of this is about all the polytheists.
9:4 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue the pledge with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous.
So you give them 4 months as a period of reconciliation. They have broken the treaty, you have given them time, and there is no option but to battle.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Then comes the mercy if they are seeking your protection.
9:6 And if any of the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctity. This is because they are a people who do not know.
9:8 How is it that when they come upon you they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and the majority of them are wicked.
They are not called polytheists because of their belief alone, it is because they are cheaters as a people. They broke a pledge and they did not keep their promises.
As long as they are upright with you, you are upright with them. 9:7.
9:12 And if they break their oaths after making their pledge, and they challenge the authority of your Dheen; then you may kill the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.
You are allowed only the leaders of the oath-breaking, aggressive nation who fought you and attacked you first. Which means those who fight you. The governance. Not every tom, dick and harry.
They are the aggressors. They attacked you first. Not that you are to go seeking all over the world and find all the polytheists and kill them. Read.
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.
You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”
You must fight on behalf of the weak
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”
Charities to be used for just cause
9:60 The charities are to go to the poor, and the needy, and those who work to collect them, and those whose hearts have been united, and to free the slaves, and those in debt, and in the cause of God, and the wayfarer. A duty from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
You cannot kill unjustly
17:33 And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory. Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.
2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
Iqra. Read.
2:263 Kind words and forgiveness are far better than a charity that is followed by harm. God is Rich, Compassionate.
2:264 O you who believe, do not nullify your charities with insult and harm; like the one who spends his money in vanity to show off to the people, and he does not believe in God and the Last Day. His example is like a stone on which there is dust, then it is subjected to a heavy rain which leaves it bare. They cannot do anything with what they have earned; and God does not guide the rejecting people.
2:265 And the example of those who spend their money seeking the grace of God, and to save their souls, is like the example of a garden that is on a high ground and is subjected to a heavy rain, and because of that it produces double its crop. And if no heavy rain comes, then it still gives enough. And God is Seer of what you do.
Peace
Ah okay.
The hypocrisy in question is excusing one act of violence and condemning another. Both instances of violence are immediate threats to the victims of said violence.
And both acts of violence are interconnected historically and ideologically. So if we want to end the violence, we need to educate ourselves and the people committing and excusing the violence.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
This verse proves that the Bible is against proselytizing.
You can't get it any clearer than that. I am amazed there are still Christians left alive on earth
firedragon
Veteran Member
How did you understand that from this verse?
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
That is the opposite of what my English Koran translation says. I checked 7 translations, and only 1 gave your words "Jesus is God"
So, to be sure, I checked word for word translation too, and it seems this Koran verse is perfectly in tune with what Jesus taught me, and what Hindu Scriptures taught me. You twisted the 2 words around or probably read that 1 Koran who reversed the 2 words
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stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Together with "Do (not) unto others, what you (not) want them do unto you" it seems to me impossible to get away with proselytizing
Unless
2 exceptions maybe, if you proselytize people who believe in the same God or Atheists (people who do not believe in God)
But so many times Christians tried to lead me astray from my God, which they believe is different than their God, because I like Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam too.
firedragon
Veteran Member
This verse is specifically mentioning "Other Gods", which means away from YHWH. Thus it is not about proselytising the theology of YHWH that is condemned, it is the proselytisation "away from YHWH" that is condemned and death sentence is prescribed to those who do it.
Thus if you belong to another theology, it is you who is condemned if you proselytising against YHWH.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Exactly, one should never proselytize against YHWH, hence I never proselytize.
And those that proselytize walk on very thin ice, because most, if not all, who proselytize about God, are not enlightened, hence they have no clue what they talk about when they proselytize about God.
Not a coincidence that the Wise have declared that only in Silence Truth can be conveyed
firedragon
Veteran Member
I think this is going somewhere else. Thus I shall withdraw. Peace.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
"You can't preach to us, but we're allowed to preach to you!"
One rule for everyone else, and a different rule for Christians. That doesn't surprise me.
Riders
Well-Known Member
I think many who tried to take over the CApital on 1-06 this year said they had been marching around the capital in spirit by praying over it and were taking it back for God on the 6th! Many of them were Christians and had every reason to kill or injure anyone in their way to take the capital!