firedragon
Veteran Member
Tell me Teritos. How in the world did you assume this verse is referring to modern day Christians? What was the analysis you did?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Persecution of Christians
- Thread starter Teritos
- Start date
-
- Tags
- bible christians god jesus
Tell me Teritos. How in the world did you assume this verse is referring to modern day Christians? What was the analysis you did?
Persecution of Christians and other non-Muslims seems to me to be mainly caused by laws related to:
1. Blasphemy laws
2. Apostasy laws
3. Laws relating to spreading corruption in the land.
Most of the laws in your OP seem to relate to polytheists and not to 'people of the book' which includes Christians.
It is good to speak up against genuine persecution of all peoples, but you seem to be picking on verses that I haven't heard of being used as justification for persecution of Christians in particular.
Do you have any examples of polemics which resulted in real world persecution of Christians which contain those particular Quran references?
Teritos
Active Member
Quran Surah 9, Verse 29
Fight against Christians until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Quran Surah 2, Verse 65-66:
Christians must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes.
Christians are polytheists from the perspective of Islam because they believe in the Trinity. The Quran describes them as people who believe in more than one God.
Last edited:
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
The first one doesn't advocate the killing of Christians.
The second on is a punishment from their God, just as you advocate your God can do.
Imagine how abused Muslims must feel. Everyone pointing to them in their burkas, hanging on their every cuss about how Americans have occupied and ravaged their territories in the middle east. So, what if they say that they want to murder the president of the United States, or see the US a burning cinder. They are understandably angry, and they are supposed to be bitter and dangerous.
Christians must be warm and welcoming, and make sure that Arab terrorists feel welcome in the United States, and treated as every other citizen. Sure, we must pay a money to guard every airport, and put in special ultrasound at airports to check for contraband. But, we can't racially profile.
So, if a 6 year old blonde, blue-eyed girl is trying to board a plane with her parents to get to a baptist convention, she should be scrutinized as a possible al Qaeda just as much as the Muslim who is screaming at the top of his lungs with a thick Arabic accent, "death to Americans" and trying to light his tennis shoe bomb on fire.
Ancient bibles were violent. Many bibles (even the Christian bible) have parts that suggest violence. Yet, look at all of the people who believe in peace.
PHILIPPINES:
Abu Sayyaf: Target of Philippine-U.S. Anti-Terrorism Cooperation
In the Philippines, many years ago, the al Qaeda came as peace-loving citizens. Then they took over politics as ruthless and violent dictators. They had trained Filipinos to hate Jews (though none had ever seen a Jew). As Christians, we can't discriminate, and must allow those who do discriminate to grow in power, spread discrimination, and kill us. This is the only way that we could rapture to heaven in the end times. Why harm those who are trying to kill us in order to rapture us to heaven?
TERRORISM IN ISRAEL:
Jewish teens were targeted by Arab terrorists. They wanted to kill those with a lot of promise and hope. Some would have become doctors, some would have been world leaders, working for peace. So, pizza parlors were a major focal point for Arab bombs. Sometimes Arabs would strap bombs to their own sons and send them in to blow themselves up and blow up others. The promise, of course, was eternal bliss with 72 virgins (anyone who is married knows that marriage isn't bliss).
Evangelical Christians Take Aim at Islam
Reverend Jerry Falwell: "I think Mohammed was a terrorist ." "he was about a violent man, a man of war."
Reverend Pat Robertson (founder of the Christian Coalition) said about Mohammad "He was a robber and a brigand" "This man was an absolute wild-eyed fanatic." "Adolph Hitler was bad, but what the Muslims want to do to the Jews is worse"
Reverend Jerry Vines: "Islam was founded by Mohammed, a demon possed pedophile who had 12 wives and his last one was a 9 year old girl."
Reverend Jimmy Swaggart: "We ought to take every single Muslim student in every college in this nation and ship them back to where they came from." (In Swaggart's defense, many Middle Eastern engineering students at George Tech were dancing in the streets celebrating 911 when the towers fell).
When Solman Rushdie wrote Satanic Verses, a fatwa was issued to murder him for insulting Muslims.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter18b.htm
firedragon
Veteran Member
More cut and pastes on the way mate. I am showing how below standard your cut and paste game is. Lets do some cherry picking. What you say?
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 )
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 )
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 )
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 )
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die.(Leviticus 24:10-16 )
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 )
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 )
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 )
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 )
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 )
They are a kind of protected class as people of the book.
You can read the Quran online, one of its more famous interpreters is Yusuf Ali.
There is a link here to surah 2: Surah 2. Al-Baqara Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim
Verse 65-66 is talking about children of Israel who rejected the Sabbath, it has nothing to do with Christians or Muhammadans.
9 v29 is more problematic, but it has different interpretations, some Muslims appear to believe it refers to all non-believers in God and the last day, whilst others believe it was revealed for a defensive war against the Christians.
I'm trying to paraphrase/ summarise here, but you can find a more comprehensive explanation of the different interpretations Muslims have of this verse at At-Tawba 29
Teritos
Active Member
Quran Surah 98, Verse 6
Indeed, the people of the book(Christians) are in the fire of Hell, abiding therein; those are the worst of all beings.
firedragon
Veteran Member
From the perspective of Islam you say? So what you are trying to do is make the case that All references to Polytheists, all references to Christians, are all referring to all Christians right?
See, when being genuinely analytical you would note that the chapter 9 verse you quoted in the OP was referring to a specific act of betrayal and oath breaking and those people who did that are called "Polytheists".
You see mate, if you genuinely analyse you would note that even those who "worship money" are called polytheists. Also, you should note that those people who worship their own ego/wishful thinking/desire are also called Polytheists. So even those who call themselves Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Pagan, Alien, whoever you are is called a polytheist for "worshiping money, or/and yourself".
Of course you wouldn't know about this and of course you would not respond to this properly as you have done so far since you dont intend to but just cut and paste cherry picked stuff. So again, lets play your game. Keep it coming.
What translation are you using?
Why not stick to a reputable translation such as yusuf ali?
Teritos
Active Member
Yusuf Ali: Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yes, you have the same rule in your version of God. What is the problem?
So lay aside what the Quran and the Bible say about people who reject truth, what do you personally think about people who reject truth, are they the best of creatures or the worst of them?
Probably not, because in countries where Islam is the minority, even devout Muslims don't go around killing people.
I've noticed something: when a religion - ANY religion, AFAICT - gets power over a government or a society, people end up being persecuted and oppressed. Doesn't matter if it's Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc., etc.
The probes seems to be theocracy, not the doctrines of any particular religion.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
I would think it's not good to judge others, especially in faith or belief, Because we our self may be judged on our action, words and thoughts
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Or any authoritarian ideology with too much power.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, yes. But the limit is in practice is where your faith stops and mine begins and so in reverse. No human lives alone with only their faith. We all live among each other.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
In my thoughts, still no need to judge others , ( yes it happen i do it too Sometimes)
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
You still have to decide if you do as they tell you in interactions with them or do otherwise.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
I have a feeling your understanding of judgment is different than mine
Judgment in my understanding is to speak bad or speak down other people, to think er know better than others