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Pergatory

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by Ceridwen018, Jun 15, 2004.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Ceridwen018 ,

    OK...... that makes it a bit easier to respond to your questions.

    You have to learn the about the start of the Catholic Church. Jesus entrusted the Gospel to the Apostles and those that the leaders of the faith appointed to replace them after their deaths or due to expansion of territory. The majority of the New Testament is instructions to the faithful from those leaders instructing them in how to worship. The majority of this instruction WAS VERBAL..... and the Traditions of the Church of God were started.

    I could go on about Apostolic succesion and the laying of hands, but to an athiest...... why would you care???? :mrgreen:

    Just let me sum things up by saying that there is a BIG difference between personal interpretation of faith by Joe Schmoe ...etc , and those who, by the Grace of God, were entrusted to teach the truth about Jesus Christ for eternity.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  2. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Alright I see what you're getting at, but the fact of the matter is that Joe Schmoe can become a preist (and thereby be entrusted to teach about Jesus), just as quickly as any other guy. You can't avoid personal interpretation.

    I don't really understand what this has to do with pergatory though. Are you saying that the idea of pergatory has been verbally passed down through the ages and just conveniently left out of the bible?
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Ceridwen018,

    Yes Joe can become a priest.......... BUT, we then believe that the power of the Holy Spirit gives the new priest a gift... an "indellible seal" of the Sacrament of Holy Orders that puts him in a class above the average "Joe".

    I am not saying that you should believe that.... I am just saying that personal interpretation is a bit different when scripture is read and tought using the same Spirit that wrote the text.

    Why do you, an athiest, hold the Bible as the ONLY source of truth?????? Catholics regard Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as the source of all our teachings......... I think you are using the "Bible only" Fundamentalist Christian reasoning and trying to apply it to Catholic teaching.......... That just does not work.....

    Hope this helps.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  4. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    I would say sacred tradition must be first based on Sacred Scripture before it is even admissable as a source to church doctrine. The problem with purgatory is that it is not refferrenced in Sacred Scripture and it is oriented towards works righteousness, a belief that takes God out of the equation for man's justification.
     
  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    LCMS Sprecher

    Well, thanks for your opinion!

    What lead you to this belief?

    Can you quote me some scripture to back this up?

    And, just so you know MY opinion on Tradition, let me explain:

    Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.

    They have been handed down and entrusted to the Church (which means to its official teachers, the bishops in union with the pope). It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible:
    Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

    The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church......
    Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    ....who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church
    Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption :
    John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  6. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    Primarily, my belief on purgatory and other church tradition is governed my religion, I am Lutheran. While I am an advocate of church tradition, primarily that found in our literagy; I am against church tradition that shows itself as a part to man's salvation when it is not referrenced as such in the Bible. Some traditions are ideophra (I think that is the correct spelling- not sure though) which are neither commanded nor forbidden in Scripture. However, Holy Scripture is clear that the only way to salvation is through Christ and not through our own works. Purgatory presents a situation in which man can work off his sins, which is not possible. This is a tradition not started by the apostles either, but by a pope in the early church. As to the verbal passing on off of church tradition, I hold that with a grain of salt, because that can be easily twisted by the church because there are no records to these ancient church traditions. I can site no Biblical references for purgatory and the state of purgatory also goes against the forgiveness that is present in Christ's death on the cross. That is my problem with purgatory.
     
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    SOGFPP,

    I see what you're saying here, but you have to think logically. How easy would it be for those oral messages to become displaced and distorted? You say that the church was guided by the Holy Spirit, but what is the Holy Spirit? You can't see it or hear it. You may say that you can 'feel' it, but doesn't it seem weird to you that 'deep feelings' are only considered evidence in religion and psychological evaluations of mental patients?
     
  8. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    The vehicle through which the Holy Spirit works is God's Word, not the word of man. If man's word does not convey God's Word then the Holy Spirit isn't at work. Therefore, oral tradition cannot be seen as a way to define doctrine unless it is based on the Word of God first. If that tradition is not mentioned in the Word of God, then it is more or less neither commanded nor denied. However, if the tradition is against God's Word then it is heretical. Oral and church traditions are fine, however they have to be measured against God's Word to see if they can actually play a role in defining church doctrine.
     
  9. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Ceridwen018,

    I like you a lot!! GREAT questions and no attitude!! I thank you for that.....

    As far as your comments.... you're RIGHT.... there is a leap of faith when it comes to those oral messages..... BUT... I would have to point out that to believe the Bible as the word of God takes a similar leap of faith.
    I believe..... you don't. If it were a matter of logic, God would have left Jesus here and sometime in the near future while you were writing on the computer you would get a slap on the back of the head...... turn around, and there's Jesus! "Hi there...... I'm real.... believe in me okay?" and poof he disapears.

    Short of that.... my faith brings me joy. My love for Christ fills me with love and kindness towards my fellow man.

    I hope your LACK of faith brings you happiness and love in your life.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  10. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    LCMS Sprecher,

    Ok........

    So, some tradition is ok, but others are not.... interesting ideology.

    Wrong........ you just don't understand what pugatory is...... and it seems, the Catholic faith in general.

    Wooo boy, explain to me how you have your Bible WITHOUT oral tradition, without the early Christian church?

    Did your Bible fall from the sky intact? No it did not.

    There was a Canon of Scripture long before your pal Luther came along...... or do you think that God needed 1500 years to get it right?

    NO CATHOLIC CHURCH = NO TRADTION
    NO TRADITION = NO BIBLE

    I am sure you can connect the two............ :wink:

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    LCMS Sprecher,

    Ok........

    So, some tradition is ok, but others are not.... interesting ideology.

    Wrong........ you just don't understand what pugatory is...... and it seems, the Catholic faith in general.

    Wooo boy, explain to me how you have your Bible WITHOUT oral tradition, without the early Christian church?

    Did your Bible fall from the sky intact? No it did not.

    There was a Canon of Scripture long before your pal Luther came along...... or do you think that God needed 1500 years to get it right?

    NO CATHOLIC CHURCH = NO TRADTION
    NO TRADITION = NO BIBLE

    I am sure you can connect the two............ :wink:

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  12. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    You cannot say that tradition was created without adherring to a Biblical basis. Everything in liturgy is based on Scripture passages. Our Sacraments come from Scripture.

    "Wrong........ you just don't understand what pugatory is...... and it seems, the Catholic faith in general."- SOGFPP

    Please enlighten me then to the real purpose of purgatory. I go to a catholic high school and in most cases no more about the Catholic faith than my Catholic friends do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic belief centers around something that Christ opened up salvation to us through the gift of His life on the cross, but we in tern must work for that salvation. Christ gives us the ability to do good works to save ourselves through his death. Purgatory is an extension of that theology and says that "well if you couldn't get it all done in this life then you have a chance to work it off before you get to heaven." That kind of theology doesn't not "jive" so to speak with the Holy Scripture, because the Bible makes many references to Christ's blood being freely shed for all people without condition. Only faith is needed to apprehend the gift and that comes from Holy Spirit. So, in the end, it's all God no man, because man can do nothing because of our sinful nature. If a tradition does not fit with Biblical teaching then is it right? In the case of purgatory, it seems to contridict Biblical teaching in regards to justification.

    As far as the catholic church deal no tradition no bible deal, the Bible came before tradition. The church at that time, had the books of the Bible, from which they built their tradition. The Catholic church didn't in effect write the Bible because it had tradition. If the Bible was based on tradition then purgatory would be actively mentioned in it. As I said before, tradition is not bad, as long as it does not go against Scripture or denies it.
     
  13. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    ***MOD EDIT***

    A quote of the entirety of your own previous post is still a double post.
     
  14. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    LCMS Sprecher,

    "You cannot say that tradition was created without adherring to a Biblical basis. Everything in liturgy is based on Scripture passages. Our Sacraments come from Scripture."

    Well, you seem to be looking for a debate, and this is not the forum for that.......

    All you have to do is educate me about how the Christians in the first, second, tenth (etc) year after the death and resurection of Jesus functioned as Christians WITHOUT Scripture. Show me in the OT (since that's all there was at the time) where your liturgy and Sacraments came from.

    "Please enlighten me then to the real purpose of purgatory."

    I already did. You just don't understand it.

    " I go to a catholic high school and in most cases no more about the Catholic faith than my Catholic friends do."

    What's your point? Uneducated (about the Catholic Faith) Lutheran or uneducated Catholic.... makes no difference to me. Some faithful study the RCC for 50 years and learn something new each day... I know I do.

    "Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic belief centers around something that Christ opened up salvation to us through the gift of His life on the cross, but we in tern must work for that salvation."

    Wrong again..... here's a few teachings from the Catechism:
    1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

    1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

    2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.

    #2025 speaks directly about merit...... and to read this and understand it, makes the idea that Catholics believe in a "works salvation" RIDICULOUS!!

    Read this quote from St. Thérèse of Lisieux
    "Act of Offering" in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277.
    After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.

    Starting to understand that your view of the Catholic faith is WAY OFF??????

    Please understand, I am not trying to convert you or anyone!! This is not a debate forum, this is just my attempt to educate you about the Catholic faith. The fact that you go to a Catholic HS ( why not Lutheran?) and they have not taught you the BASICS about the faith is horrific to me. I am disgusted that you have not even been given the same education that my 11 year old has..... what a shame.

    I do want to point out that I am very proud to know you..... most of the HS students I come across nowadays would rather be playing video games or looking at porn on the internet..... God has blessed you with a desire for the truth of the Good Shepard and I pray your life continues on in this search for the love of Jesus Christ.

    Peace be with you!

    Don't forget to educate me about those early Christians that did not have the Bible............

    Your friend in Christ,
    Scott
     
  15. Mr Spinkles

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    Forgive me for jumping in here, but I think SOGFPP has brought up some very good points. The Lutheran church has a tradition, just as the Catholic church does. If all you relied upon was scripture, LCMS, why don't you celebrate Passover (and all the other Jewish holidays)? Correct me if I am wrong, but Jesus was Jewish and he celebrated Passover and all the other Jewish holidays, and he never told his followers to stop doing this.
     
  16. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    LCMS, woohoo! Catholic high school, representin'!

    This brings up a very interesting idea. The NT was written after Jesus, and developed slowly as new letters were written and the Christian Church was being established. To cut to the chase, who says that things can't be added any more as new interpretations are read and as society evolves? If the idea of pergatory can be logically backed up and supported by other biblical references, etc., why can't it be added?
     
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