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Pergatory

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ceridwen018, Jul 29, 2004.

  1. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    This thread must've gotten lost when things were being moved around, but we had a good convo going so I thought I'd start 'er back up!

    I used to be Catholic, and I feel like I have a pretty good working knowledge of the faith. The idea of pergatory has always bugged me though, because it doesn't really stem from anything. It's not mentioned in the bible or any other Christian text. It seems to me like it was just made up by the Church in Medeival time to make money (indulgences). What my main question is, is what does it add to the faith? Why hasn't it been gotten rid of?
     
  2. Irenicas

    Irenicas high overlord of sod all

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    Well, I think mainly it has been part of the religion (regardless of where it comes from) for such a long time it would be hard just to bin it. Also, whilst there is little if no mention in standard religious texts, the literature of Christianity has a lot to say about it. See Dante's Divine Comedy if you don't believe me.

    As for its purpose, well, it seems to me as a sort of "Oops, what have I said" get-out clause. It seems like someone said "everyone who ever did bad things goes to hell, and everyone who does good things goes to heaven" And some pointed out that people can do both. "Oops" says the preacher, and invent purgatory.
     
  3. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    purgatory is where we are purged of our sins as no one imperfect can go to heaven. since no one but Jesus and Mary were sinless, unless judged to hell we all will go to purgatory if just for an instant. the only way to get out of purgatory is to be prayed for and have masses said. there are many books on the subject in catholic book stores if u are interested in some supernatural experiences and what it like there. when someone in purgatory is being thought of or prayed for they are relieved of any immediate pain. the average stay in purgatory is 40 years which is also the symbol for that place. the jews exodus lasted 40 years in the desert. Jesus spent 40 days in the desert fasting (eating minimal amounts of food) and praying. purgatory is symbolized in the Bible but i'm not sure if the actual word is in the Bible. before Jesus' time, everyone who died were asleep waiting for judgement, ie. abraham being woke from sleep. God is just and we will all suffer either on earth and pugatory or in hell. suffering is necessary to purge oneself and others from sin. yes u can help others salvation by suffering for them.
     
  4. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    i want to go to limbo after i die so i can be with all the aborted babies, destined for heaven
     
  5. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    The idea of Purgatory is another way the Catholic church voersteps the bounds of its psuedo-authority by trying to open ever wider the door to heaven that Christ said few would find. They started off saying anyone can baptize, then they said babies can be baptized, then they said babies should be baptized, thus completely removing the responsibility from the shoulders of every human ever born. Then they say purgatory is where we go and become perfect so we can all go home to God (hey, nobody likes a game where someone has to lose, so let's make it so everyone wins!). Christ said few would find the door but the Catholic church, in essence, says, "Man, God's too strict. We're gonna make it so everyone goes to heaven, whether they realize it or not. Yeah, that's cool, man."
     
  6. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    the more perfect life u live on earth shortens your purge or stay in purgatory.
     
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you have to spend time being purged? Can't god just snap his fingers and make you ready? Also, it is against our nature (which god created) to be perfect. God created us to be imperfect individuals. Why then, don't you think that heaven will fit us by being imperfect as well? Why do we have to change our entire beings to please god? That's like telling a child to fit a ball into a square hole, and he won't get his candy if he can't do it.
     
  8. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    just because u say something doesn't make it true even tho u believe it. that's why we have the infallibility of the pope who can't error on official pronouncements of faith(what we believe), dogma(church traditions like the sacrament of the eucharist), and morals(difference between right and wrong). i pray that u search for absolute truth and trust in your God to find the true church(roman catholic), to ease your mind and find peace within your soul and heart. it's great to believe in the truth and know it.
     
  9. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me for finding this statement particularly humorous. I agree with the first part of this-- being that things are not true just because we believe them to be true and want them to be true. The funny part comes in when you try to support that by using an idea which is completely unproven, and for which I would be tempted to remind you that just because people tell you the pope is infallibale and because you want him to be, doesn't mean he is...although you already presented this idea, so I guess I'll save my breath.

    Basically, you are seriously contradicting yourself here.

    Do not be so pretentious as to assume you know what the 'ultimate truth' is. For all you know, the RCC could be a bunch of crap....you don't have any proof to state otherwise.

    Don't I know it...but I'm puzzled as to how you do.

    You are a scientist, is that correct? Do you think there is scientific evidence for god? If so, check out my thread 'Does science prove god?' or something like that under 'Scientific Debates'.
     
  10. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    the pope is infallible because of God not man. of course u choose what u want to believe and that can be fallible because of u not God. would u like to join in the discussion on e=mc2 topic. that's scientific. there are 24 proofs for the existence of God. they are in the book summa theologica by thomas aquinas.
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

    1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

    As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608


    1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

    Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611


    1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84 1473The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."85

    Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

    Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

    Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

    Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

    Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

    1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

    Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

    2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

    Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

    Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

    1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

    Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

    Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

    Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

    Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

    Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

    2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: "Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983). Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#III
     
  13. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    No offense, but the RCC, the Pope, etc.. seems pretty strange to me. In fact, I can find things in every sect of denomination that is plain bogus. Really though, do you think that God would show one truth to one person and another truth to another person, and that these truths would be so different that Christians would form into splinter groups, each adherring to their special, unharmonious revelation? Do you seriously accept the four gospels, the Sermon on the Mount, the Apostle's Creed, the Lord's Prayer, and the 10 commandments as being the basic doctrines of Christianity? It's obvious people practice in error and after a period of time they make a doctrine of it and then finally doctrinal errors manifest themselves in creeds, rules and commandments of men. It's a fact that spiritual darkness has engulfed the Christian world, and "religion" (man-made forms of worship) now define Chrisitanity. What do you think initiated the different so-called "bodies"? Even Paul declared in his second letter to Timothy, "that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me." So even before the end of Paul's lifetime, the full comprehension of the revelation concerning the great mystery was really forgotten. Very, very very few people have recaptured the basic truth of the revelation of the great mystery. The first truth to be lost is usually the last to be regained. Much of today's confusion is brought on by not knowing that different parts of the Bible are addressed to different groups of people. Today there is such ingnorance among most Christians. Only the understanding and acceptance of the great revelation will deliver a believer from all the new sects, doctrines, theories, and schools of thought. There is no subject of greater importance then the great mystery. The time of it began with the day of Pentecost and terminates with the gathering together of the believers. Yet, nobody on these forums have even mentioned the revelation of the great mystery. Most people's center or focal point of almost every church is the alter and the cross. They do not spiritually go beyond Jesus Christ and his cruicifixion.
     
  14. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    BTW, Pergatory is a catholic thing. It's a place catholics go before they can go to heaven. Perhaps, its a place God will instruct them of the errors the catholic church has taught, including their idea of pergatory, I don't know.
     
  15. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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  16. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    It's not surprising though. Christianity was born in a time of political chaos with very little opportunity for a formal organization and when the church finally gained political recogniton it rapidly began to organize, nominate and hold councils. In the 11th century a big shattering split between East and West resulted in the formation of the Orthodox in the East and the Roman Catholic in the West. A few centuries later a further division arose and the Protestants protested against the RCC. In turn the Protestant multiplied into hundreds of denominations. By the end of the 19th century, the possibility of a united "body" seems as impossible as any union of Christian, Muslim and Jewish faith. It should be obvious that much has been forgotten and "made-up doctrine" took substitute. This also had been prophesized.
     
  17. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    the numericall symbol for purgatory is 40. the jews spent forty years in the desert. jesus spent 40 days of fasting and prayer in the desert. most people spend 40 years in purgatory. purgatory is better than earth. u have nothing to fear. we are purged of our sins in purgatory as we all die imperfect and no one imperfect can enter heaven. thus we must be cleansed in purgatory befor entering heaven.
     
  18. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    How in the world do you presume to know that? Did someone come back from pergatory and tell you that the average stay was 40 years?
     
  19. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    God's people communicate with him in many different ways. miracles still occur as do private revelations. there are many people who have been visited by saints, angels, and people in purgatory. just visit a good book store or library and u will find many books on such occurences. that's how i found out. there are many inspired works since the Bible. not all books are divinely or totally inspired by God. that's why in rc we have the impramatur and neihl obstat to guide us as to whether or not the book conflicts with doctrine. it takes trust and faith in good, honest people to believe. take a leap of faith.
     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    ceridwen,

    Well, here is the reason that my Church forbids lay people from apologetics without training and support.... you get misguided garbage like this and it makes the faith look ridiculous.

    Trish should have approval from her Bishop (and at the very least her Priest) before discussing the Catholic faith and making it seem like she is an informed, educated authority....... none of which she seems to be.

    There is NO set number or average years that one will spend in purgatory.

    Scott
     
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