• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Perfect Quran

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
The "invent" is similar to "forge", but it didn't say tell (qala) a lie regarding God, but forges/fabricates a lie. You have to keep in mind the context that Mohammad (s) is accused as forging a lie against God.

Oh, c'mon! That's just a ridiculous exercise in semantics.

The word "Aftara" is a bit stronger, in that, it means you go out of your way to attribute to God. An example is regarding halal and haram. If a person is mistaken, it's not treated as forging a lie attributed to God, but if you are a scholar and you attribute halal and haram without knowledge, it's treated as forging a lie.

It's subtle, but there is a difference.

It is clearly referring to those who reject Islam by not accepting that the Qur'an is a direct communication from Allah. That's the "lie", and you know it.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh, c'mon! That's just a ridiculous exercise in semantics.



It is clearly referring to those who reject Islam by not accepting that the Qur'an is a direct communication from Allah. That's the "lie", and you know it.
There is two parts, there is rejecting signs and there is forging a lie.

There is another verse that says "Only they forge against God a lie who do not believe in our signs".

But the other way is not necessarily true. You can disbelieve in God's signs without fabricating/forging a lie.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you want to put the logic together.

It's saying, Mohammad (s) would be in fact rejecting God's signs if he is forging the Quran. It would be that he is a total disbeliever in them. But the perfect logic as to why God would send revelation, appoint guides, etc, is there in Quran in abstract form.

You can form an argument:

(1) A person who does not believe in God's signs does not know how to make perfect arguments for the exact form God would send his guidance and the various logical refutations to doubts would not be there, and they would miss an angle from arguing for God's Signs.

(2) Quran makes perfect arguments for the exact form God would send his guidance and the various logical refutations to doubts are there, and it does not miss an angle from arguing for God's Signs.

(3) Only a person who does not believe in God's signs would forge a lie against God

C- Therefore the Quran is not a forgery and Mohammad (s) not a forger


Now Quran does bring the doubts that they believe Mohammad (s) is possessed and is honestly misguided, but this would not be forging - it's a different argument, and Quran addresses it differently.
 
Last edited:

Dimi95

Χριστός ἀνέστη
If you didn't hate murder more then minor sins you do, what do you think prevents it? In case of murder, a person may fear jail or find no benefit. So maybe it's not the best example.

So for crimes when there is benefit. For example, take fornication or cheating on wife. That might be pleasurable and there are no real consequences in the law in the West. If you didn't hate it, you would probably eventually do it. If it's just because it's wrong, then you probably do minor sins that are wrong.

What separates major sins is that amount of negative we see in it, but that is spiritual, so on the emotional side, it's the amount of hate. This is why society even has grading for sins on severity.
But , my friend why to engage like that , when you can avoid devoloping evil desires.Avoiding is the best possible way to not interact with such desires , and you won't be tempted to actions.
Regardless of the way you classify sins.
When you are filled with so much negative feelings , you are exposing yourself to action.And as humans , we have temper.

Change the number , 100 who love x 100 x hate - what kind of effect will we have in this kind of situation?

We are talking about faith,It's not fair to put the West in this discussion.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Change the number , 100 who love x 100 x hate - what kind of effect will we have in this kind of situation?

Imam Jaffar (a) says this about love:

He who loves for the sake of Allah is beloved of Allah, and he who is loved for the sake of Allah is also beloved of Allah, since each loves the other for the sake of Allah. The Messenger of Allah said, 'Man is with whom he loves. Whoever loves a bondsman in Allah, loves Allah. No one loves Allah except he whom Allah loves.' And again, 'The best of people after the prophets in this world and the next are those who love each other for Allah.' Every love based on some cause other than Allah brings about enmity except for these two, for they come from the same source. Theirs always increases and never decreases. As Allah said,


الْأَخِلَّاء يَوْمَئِذٍ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ عَدُوٌّ إِلَّا الْمُتَّقِينَ
The friends shall on that day be enemies to one another except for those who guard against evil, (43:67)

because the root of love is being free of everything except the Beloved.

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'The best thing in the Garden and the sweetest is love of Allah, love in Allah, and praise for Allah.' And Allah has said,


وَآخِرُ دَعْوَاهُمْ أَنِ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
The last of their supplication shall be "Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds", (10:10)


because when they see the blessings that exist in the Garden, love is aroused in their hearts and then they call out, 'Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'



And the previous chapter says:

When love of Allah takes possession of the innermost being of Allah's bondsman, it empties him of every preoccupation except remembrance of Allah. The lover is the most inwardly sincere of all people for Allah. He is the most truthful in his words, the most faithful in his pledge, the most astute in his actions, the purest in remembrance, and the greatest in devoting his self in worship.

The angels compete with each other to converse with him, and boast of having seen him. Through him Allah makes His lands flourish, and by His regard, Allah honours His slaves. Allah gives to people when they ask Him by his right, and removes afflictions from them by His mercy. If people knew how they stand with Allah, they would not try to draw near to Allah save by the dust of his feet.

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Love of Allah is a fire which does not pass by anything without burning it up; the light of Allah does not come over something without illuminating it.

The skies of Allah do not cause a cloud to appear without it covering whatever is beneath it; the wind of Allah does not blow on something without it moving. Allah's water gives life to everything, and from Allah's earth everything grows. Whoever loves Allah is given every possession and authority.'

The Holy Prophet said, 'When Allah loves a slave in my community, He casts love of him into the hearts of His friends, the spirits of the angels and the keepers of His throne, so that they love him.’

That lover truly has an abundance of bliss, and will be able to intercede with Allah on the Day of Resurrection.'
 

Dimi95

Χριστός ἀνέστη
Imam Jaffar (a) says this about love:

He who loves for the sake of Allah is beloved of Allah, and he who is loved for the sake of Allah is also beloved of Allah, since each loves the other for the sake of Allah. The Messenger of Allah said, 'Man is with whom he loves. Whoever loves a bondsman in Allah, loves Allah. No one loves Allah except he whom Allah loves.' And again, 'The best of people after the prophets in this world and the next are those who love each other for Allah.' Every love based on some cause other than Allah brings about enmity except for these two, for they come from the same source. Theirs always increases and never decreases. As Allah said,



The friends shall on that day be enemies to one another except for those who guard against evil, (43:67)

because the root of love is being free of everything except the Beloved.

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'The best thing in the Garden and the sweetest is love of Allah, love in Allah, and praise for Allah.' And Allah has said,



The last of their supplication shall be "Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds", (10:10)


because when they see the blessings that exist in the Garden, love is aroused in their hearts and then they call out, 'Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'



And the previous chapter says:

When love of Allah takes possession of the innermost being of Allah's bondsman, it empties him of every preoccupation except remembrance of Allah. The lover is the most inwardly sincere of all people for Allah. He is the most truthful in his words, the most faithful in his pledge, the most astute in his actions, the purest in remembrance, and the greatest in devoting his self in worship.

The angels compete with each other to converse with him, and boast of having seen him. Through him Allah makes His lands flourish, and by His regard, Allah honours His slaves. Allah gives to people when they ask Him by his right, and removes afflictions from them by His mercy. If people knew how they stand with Allah, they would not try to draw near to Allah save by the dust of his feet.

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Love of Allah is a fire which does not pass by anything without burning it up; the light of Allah does not come over something without illuminating it.

The skies of Allah do not cause a cloud to appear without it covering whatever is beneath it; the wind of Allah does not blow on something without it moving. Allah's water gives life to everything, and from Allah's earth everything grows. Whoever loves Allah is given every possession and authority.'

The Holy Prophet said, 'When Allah loves a slave in my community, He casts love of him into the hearts of His friends, the spirits of the angels and the keepers of His throne, so that they love him.’

That lover truly has an abundance of bliss, and will be able to intercede with Allah on the Day of Resurrection.'
When you have love for God , then you have love for everyone else.
How can others love , when you don't share your love for God? When you share it , they can love also.
You can multiply that.. The effect is limitless :)
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
There is two parts, there is rejecting signs and there is forging a lie.

There is another verse that says "Only they forge against God a lie who do not believe in our signs".

But the other way is not necessarily true. You can disbelieve in God's signs without fabricating/forging a lie.

Nope. Rejection of the Qur'an as Allah's word is the lie.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
The best results aren't happening. That ship has set sailed. There is only salvaging now what we can.
There is so very much that you are blind to seeing. The ship only sails if you allow it to leave.

Are we here to salvage or to Fix the real problems? It has never ever been only about Me! Me! Me!

Widen the view. There is much more knowledge living beyond the surface.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is so very much that you are blind to seeing. The ship only sails if you allow it to leave.

Are we here to salvage or to Fix the real problems? It has never ever been only about Me! Me! Me!

Widen the view. There is much more knowledge living beyond the surface.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
I can't control everything and this is what you are not understanding, neither can anyone else including God. The day he controls everything is the day of judgment, then it's too late for souls to fix themselves if they didn't have a good footing, because the proofs are shown and it's too late to reform.

And history has shown humanity has failed to be good. There is no best results. There is only salvaging what is left of history (future) and from what I can tell, things don't look too good in that regard.

The dark prophecies of Quran were meant to be avoided. They were not. I was not there to call people to Ali (a) nor defend Imam Hussain (a) - I am in this time, born in this time. I was not alive during Noah (a) time to call people to him and reason with them.

I will try my best to show the family of Mohammad (s) in Quran to Muslims, and other things they are blind to due to the sorcery of evil forces, but I can't change everything. I can only do my best.

And before I dare to preach about morals, I better fix myself.
 

Dimi95

Χριστός ἀνέστη
I can't control everything and this is what you are not understanding, neither can anyone else including God. The day he controls everything is the day of judgment, then it's too late for souls to fix themselves if they didn't have a good footing, because the proofs are shown and it's too late to reform.

And history has shown humanity has failed to be good. There is no best results. There is only salvaging what is left of history (future) and from what I can tell, things don't look too good in that regard.

The dark prophecies of Quran were meant to be avoided. They we not. I was not there to call people to Ali (a) nor defend Imam Hussain (a) - I am in this time, born in this time. I was not alive during Noah (a) time to call people to him and reason with them.

I will try my best to show the family of Mohammad (s) in Quran to Muslims, and other things they are blind to due to the sorcery of evil forces, but I can't change everything. I can only do my best.

And before I dare to preach about morals, I better fix myself.
Belive everything when God is in your heart.
That's is where your limit is,when you have doubt.
You must have strong faith in God.

Can you tell me , by what you know from the Bible , where can you find the first form of prophecy for the ressurection of Jesus Christ.
You don't have to belive it , just state it from what is written.
I want to show you something , i will not use your answer for further discussion and point.
Please if you will , can you answer?


.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I can't control everything and this is what you are not understanding, neither can anyone else including God. The day he controls everything is the day of judgment, then it's too late for souls to fix themselves if they didn't have a good footing, because the proofs are shown and it's too late to reform.

And history has shown humanity has failed to be good. There is no best results. There is only salvaging what is left of history (future) and from what I can tell, things don't look too good in that regard.

The dark prophecies of Quran were meant to be avoided. They were not. I was not there to call people to Ali (a) nor defend Imam Hussain (a) - I am in this time, born in this time. I was not alive during Noah (a) time to call people to him and reason with them.

I will try my best to show the family of Mohammad (s) in Quran to Muslims, and other things they are blind to due to the sorcery of evil forces, but I can't change everything. I can only do my best.

And before I dare to preach about morals, I better fix myself.
You greatly Underestimate God. Mankind is advancing nicely. People are learning and growing. New students in need of learning and growing arrive every day. Perhaps, you focus so much on the bad choices that you fail to see the goodness that quietly exists all around us.

God's system leads everyone, through their free choices, to Discover for themselves what the best choices really are. God's system is teaching everyone Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love is where all the best choices are living. If one places a focus on Unconditional Love, one can advance further than what any other direction will lead. Unconditional Love not only returns the best, it leads straight toward God better than any holy book written by mankind.

Lastly, let me say something about your tortured parents. I understand how the gut reaction is Wrath, Anger, Hate, Wanting Punishment, Payback, and Revenge. By holding onto these petty things mankind holds so dear, you will create misery for yourself. One can hold onto this kind of hurt for a lifetime. Valuing this hurt, can lead one to making and copying the bad choices that created this hurt in the first place. These are things that one does not want returning to oneself.

If you Love, Trust, and Believe in God enough, Allow God to take this problem from you. God teaches all His children what their choices really mean by returning their choices and action. Many choose very hard lessons for themselves. You do not have to be one of them. Let it all go and allow God to do the teaching.

Finally, remember, there really is no time limit on learning. Each will have many many physical lifetimes before one acquires the knowledge and wisdom to be able to create a Heavenly state for oneself and others. If others seem to so called get away with things, worry not, no one can create a Heavenly state through torture. In time, the lesson will be learned. The answers will be Discovered.

I say Focus on the Goodness in this world, then nurture that Goodness to grow and spread. The example will, in time, lead people forward toward the direction we all deep down seek.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Wrong. "Inventing a lie against Allah" isn't the same thing as denying your faith per taqiyya..

Never said it was. "Inventing a lie against Allah" is the sin/crime that the Qur'an accuses unbelievers of. Taqiyya allows Muslims to lie to unbelievers in the cause of Allah. That's why I'm lied to so often when I discuss Islam.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Never said it was. "Inventing a lie against Allah" is the sin/crime that the Qur'an accuses unbelievers of.
So what? You quoted it as part of your argument.
- 29:68 - "And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him?"

Taqiyya allows Muslims to lie to unbelievers in the cause of Allah.
Wrong again, it's only about denying the faith when in jeopardy.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
If the details of Salah and Hajj and other things were all there in Quran explicitly, people after might indeed think the Quran to be sufficient without the Sunnah. So there's a reason for omission.
But God could have said in the Quran, for so and so refer to the Sunnah. He could still put details about many other things in the Quran. For example He could have put the twelve Imams in the Quran just they are mentioned in the Shia Hadithes. In that Case we wouldn't see Sunni Shia split if The Quran had said, after Muhammad, your Imam is Ali, and after Ali, His son, Hassan, then Hussein...till the twelfth one. Why Allah didn't do it this way?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But God could have said in the Quran, for so and so refer to the Sunnah. He could still put details about many other things in the Quran. For example He could have put the twelve Imams in the Quran just they are mentioned in the Shia Hadithes. In that Case we wouldn't see Sunni Shia split if The Quran had said, after Muhammad, your Imam is Ali, and after Ali, His son, Hassan, then Hussein...till the twelfth one. Why Allah didn't do it this way?
You would have split, but the split would be further complicated on what consists of Quran and God would have to opt out from protecting it from change.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
You would have split, but the split would be further complicated on what consists of Quran and God would have to opt out from protecting it from change.
I don't see how there would have been more splits if the Imams were clearly named in the Quran.
For example today, the Twelvers are not split really, because they all believe in the 12 Imams. Right? So, of the Quran would have named them all, now, all Muslims would have been twelver, No?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't see how there would have been more splits if the Imams were clearly named in the Quran.
For example today, the Twelvers are not split really, because they all believe in the 12 Imams. Right? So, of the Quran would have named them all, now, all Muslims would have been twelver, No?
I'm saying the Quran would go through physical tahreef.
 
Top