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Are people who claim to know God liars?

What do you think of people who claim knowledge of God

  • They are liars

    Votes: 5 7.8%
  • They are self deluded

    Votes: 17 26.6%
  • Of course we have knowledge of God

    Votes: 23 35.9%
  • Other, I suppose in case someone feels there's a better position to take.

    Votes: 19 29.7%

  • Total voters
    64

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
How do you determine those who actually know God from the rest?

Certainly I am not the judge of all things... I leave that to God.

But as a Christian, we have our own litmus test. I would suppose that each religion has their own litmus test.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Here's some aspirin for that headache.

People think I'm going to debate with them about things. But I'm getting too old to do everyone's homework for them. If they don't want to risk learning something, that's their problem, and I refuse to make it mine.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Some know God...
Some think they know God...
Some lie...
Some are deluded...
Some need to see a psychologist.
Ah, but how would you distinguish between them?

To me, of course, that is an absolutely crucial question. I doubt that it would seem even interesting to you, since I bet I already know in which category you place yourself (only by virtue of actually looking at the categories, and seeing that there are 3 you would certainly deny about yourself.)
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

It just something someone who does not have faith could fully understand. At least not in the same way someone with faith does.

Undoubtedly some religious folk do possess a false sense of certainty, I won't deny that. They go through the motions and do what they think they should be done, religious larpers if you will.

I have never seen God. I have never heard His voice. But I have felt His presence and love. I may not understand how He works and the things He does, but I know He loves us nonetheless. That is faith. That is why someone without faith can never fully understand, because to know it means you would have to have it.
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
People think I'm going to debate with them about things. But I'm getting too old to do everyone's homework for them. If they don't want to risk learning something, that's their problem, and I refuse to make it mine.

Isn't that your ego taking hold, you thinking that the problem lies with me and that you are the sole bearer of wisdom I must accept or else you will consider me to be ignorant for not having prescribed to your personal understanding?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Some know God...
Some think they know God...
Some lie...
Some are deluded...
Some need to see a psychologist.

I'd completely agree with you, Ken, if you'd left out the first line. As it is, we disagree about whether anyone can be that certain of knowing god. But the rest of what you say is enough wisdom for me to "like" your post anyway.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

From my viewpoint, it is kind of hard for anyone to know anything about something they cannot even demonstrate exists. But I would not call them all liars, in fact, very few are liars. They may be deluded, they may be misinformed, they may be misinterpreting an experience or feeling. I rarely doubt the sincerity of a person's religious beliefs, only the basis for the beliefs.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Certainly I am not the judge of all things... I leave that to God.

But as a Christian, we have our own litmus test. I would suppose that each religion has their own litmus test.
But the litmus test is a scientific one, that determines acids/bases through a measure of pH. I could not do a litmus test in a Catholic church on a thimble of Chateau Margaux '86, and then have a different result on the same thimbleful in a synagogue in Brussels or a "Little Mosque on the Prairie."

How, then, do you suppose that one person can apply their "litmus test" for knowledge of God to assert that God wants Muslim kafir (non-believers) killed, and your "litmus test" for knowledge of God says, "no way?" Do you each know a different God? Are there different gods? Or is your "litmus test" really just a measure of your own faith in what you believe, irrespective of what actually is?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Isn't that your ego taking hold, you thinking that the problem lies with me and that you are the sole bearer of wisdom I must accept or else you will consider me to be ignorant for not having prescribed to your personal construct of homework?

Maybe, but not likely. I can always be wrong. But in this case, you're most likely the one in the wrong. If you were in the right, you'd be able to argue your case, not just attack me. Or at the least, you'd be able to link me to an article that makes your case for you -- as I did for you.
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
Maybe, but not likely. I can always be wrong. But in this case, you're most likely the one in the wrong. If you were in the right, you'd be able to argue your case, not just attack me. Or at the least, you'd be able to link me to an article that makes your case for you -- as I did for you.

Logical fallacies can be wrongly used, which I have already stated.
Incorrectly Calling Logical Fallacies

Not to mention the fact that I further provided a logical argument to show your logical fallacy was out of place.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Amazingly, men throughout history have claimed to express the word of god, and those men were followed to the point where new religions were created. Take Mormonism, for example. There's no way Joseph Smith was in any way receiving the word of god, and yet he was a good enough con man (a historical fact of his past that seemed to be erased through holy intervention) to convince a small following that eventually became a bigger following that turned into a religion.
I've always wondered how anyone can claim to know for sure what the experiences of another person were. Maybe you could explain that to me.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Logical fallacies can be wrongly used, which I have already stated.
Incorrectly Calling Logical Fallacies

Nice blog! Thanks for the link!

As for your implicit claim that linking me to a general article on the incorrect use of logical fallacies supports your claim that I was misapplying the fallacy of arguing from ignorance to your case -- well, I just don't see that.

At any rate, you're now wasting my time.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Ah, but how would you distinguish between them?

To me, of course, that is an absolutely crucial question. I doubt that it would seem even interesting to you, since I bet I already know in which category you place yourself (only by virtue of actually looking at the categories, and seeing that there are 3 you would certainly deny about yourself.)

Answered already

Certainly I am not the judge of all things... I leave that to God.

But as a Christian, we have our own litmus test. I would suppose that each religion has their own litmus test.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Logic dictates that if someone cannot properly provide the evidence, then that something is not a part of reality.

This is a logical fallacy.

For thousands of years sailors came back from the sea with tales of giant squid. All those years not a single shred of evidence other than the tales. Widely considered to be fiction and overactive imaginations. But recently in the last 20 years or so evidence has been presented. Now giant squids are real, as they have been proven to exist. No longer fictional tales of horror.

Your logic is faulty because the giant squid has existed in reality this whole time. Because of its elusive nature, its environment (deep dark ocean) and its biology, evidence is scarce to say the least. But the lack of evidence does not immediately make something not a part of reality. As proven by the giant squid in 2004.

Who knows what evidence may be found one day that does prove the existence of God. Real tangible evidence.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But the litmus test is a scientific one, that determines acids/bases through a measure of pH. I could not do a litmus test in a Catholic church on a thimble of Chateau Margaux '86, and then have a different result on the same thimbleful in a synagogue in Brussels or a "Little Mosque on the Prairie."

How, then, do you suppose that one person can apply their "litmus test" for knowledge of God to assert that God wants Muslim kafir (non-believers) killed, and your "litmus test" for knowledge of God says, "no way?" Do you each know a different God? Are there different gods? Or is your "litmus test" really just a measure of your own faith in what you believe, irrespective of what actually is?

I think you are making it more than what I said...

As an atheist, your litmus test is scientific.

I'm sure there are many and a varied amount of litmus tests, each according to their faith.
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
I've always wondered how anyone can claim to know for sure what the experiences of another person were. Maybe you could explain that to me.

When it comes to religious belief, something that is all too common in how one is raised, since being raised an atheist is still quite the rarity, there is no such thing as a new religious experience in relation to religions that are already formerly constructed in a very direct way. The "personal" religious experience is a falsity because it pretends at individuality while also claiming the community standard. The "personal" angle is a mere smokescreen, an illogical argument, to throw the logical person off the scent of emotional security through an adherence to faith. There never was, is not, and never will be anything "personal" about millions of people who experience the same thing through the fallibility of religious faith.
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
This is a logical fallacy.

For thousands of years sailors came back from the sea with tales of giant squid. All those years not a single shred of evidence other than the tales. Widely considered to be fiction and overactive imaginations. But recently in the last 20 years or so evidence has been presented. Now giant squids are real, as they have been proven to exist. No longer fictional tales of horror.

Your logic is faulty because the giant squid has existed in reality this whole time. Because of its elusive nature, its environment (deep dark ocean) and its biology, evidence is scarce to say the least. But the lack of evidence does not immediately make something not a part of reality. As proven by the giant squid in 2004.

Who knows what evidence may be found one day that does prove the existence of God. Real tangible evidence.

If at any time evidence to the contrary can be provided, then science and the logical individual can change one's stance on the situation. So long as no evidence is at all available, the most logical stance is to claim it does not exist.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
It just something someone who does not have faith could fully understand. At least not in the same way someone with faith does.

Undoubtedly some religious folk do possess a false sense of certainty, I won't deny that. They go through the motions and do what they think they should be done, religious larpers if you will.

I have never seen God. I have never heard His voice. But I have felt His presence and love. I may not understand how He works and the things He does, but I know He loves us nonetheless. That is faith. That is why someone without faith can never fully understand, because to know it means you would have to have it.

Faith is not a problem. It's easy to have faith. There's no requirements for it other than to choose to have it in whatever your particular idea of God happens to be.

(IMO we are all Role Players. Some are better than others. Some just don't realize they are role playing. Some choose their role, others have their role chosen for them. I've played so many roles when it's comes to God I can play any role with whatever conviction necessary. Have "real" experiences which supports that faith too. None of which need have anything to do with whether an actual God exists or not.)

If I can create the reality of a divine experience shouldn't I accept you or anyone else can as well?

images
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare

That's poetic, and all too open to interpretation. An atheist can claim it means impossible things become possible in the mind of the religious while the religious can claim faith ensures all things are possible.

The difference is very psychological in nature despite the similarity in meaning and interpretation.

A more proper atheistic slogan would be: religious faith makes all things possible through the imagination.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
From my viewpoint, it is kind of hard for anyone to know anything about something they cannot even demonstrate exists. But I would not call them all liars, in fact, very few are liars. They may be deluded, they may be misinformed, they may be misinterpreting an experience or feeling. I rarely doubt the sincerity of a person's religious beliefs, only the basis for the beliefs.

I, really, don't doubt their sincerity, what I doubt is their authority. Doesn't seem a bit audacious on it's face, to feel they could claim anything about God? Yet dozens of folks feel from an unverifiable personal experience, they can claim to the rest, what God wants.
 
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