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People Who Are Against Gay Marriage Aren't Thinking Things Through.

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I said a couple of times that it was God that gave everyone free will to choose anything they want to do--it is men who stop certain things. I also am christian and go by that point of view, i dont expect everyone to agree with it. I am not going to say that i agree with something God opposes, just because someone else thinks it might be politically correct or something.
My post vanished when I tried to post it but I will try again: No one said anyone had to accept anything. There are a lot of things Christian doctrine doesn't accept that are perfectly legal. Just because it is legal doesn't mean we all have to do it or accept but we have to let others who don't follow Christian doctrines to have the right. I spoke earlier in this thread about vegans. Some of them believe that people eating meat is murder. They have a perfect right to follow that and to believe that. Two points:1. It would be rotten if vegans were forced to eat meat, wear leather and wool, drink milk, etc. 2. What would you think if they made a law that no one could eat meat, drink milk, wear leather, wool and silk, etc.- wouldn't you feel as though your rights were being infringed on? (Be honest when you answer that)
 
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kjw47

Well-Known Member
My post vanished when I tried to post it but I will try again: No one said anyone had to accept anything. There are a lot of things Christian doctrine doesn't accept that are perfectly legal. Just because it is legal doesn't mean we all have to do it or accept but we have to let others who don't follow Christian doctrines to have the right. I spoke earlier in this thread about vegans. Some of them believe that people eating meat is murder. They have a perfect right to follow that and to believe that. Two points:1. It would be rotten if vegans were forced to eat meat, wear leather and wool, drink milk, etc. 2. What would you think if they made a law that no one could eat meat, drink milk, wear leather, wool and silk, etc.- wouldn't you feel as though your rights were being infringed on? (Be honest when you answer that)


I recieved my freedom from God, if man makes laws that is contrary to God then i will always put God first. But yes i see your point and yes if homosexuals want to be married,God gave them the right to choose that path with their free will. It is not God who is stopping that, it is man who is stopping that.
God gave man free will, to serve him and do his will or to choose not to serve him and do their own will. They cannot do both.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Jesus taught not one single thing about homosexuality. Why are these "teachers" braying so loudly about it?

God spoke against homosexuality in the ot-- in fact part of the reason behind destroying Sodom and Gommorah was the acts of homosexuality, fornication,pedophilia. In the NT Paul clearly stated that God opposed homosexuality. If one applys 1 cor 6:9-11 to mankind they get this conclusion-- The road leading to life( eternal) is cramped-FEW will find it.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
God spoke against homosexuality in the ot-- in fact part of the reason behind destroying Sodom and Gommorah was the acts of homosexuality, fornication,pedophilia.
The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were very wicked, but the Bible does not mention acts of homosexuality, fornication or pedophilia. It mentions they wanted to force themselves on the angels, which is rape. Ezekiel 16:49-50 says, Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. Ezekiel said Israel's sin was even worse than Sodom's in the verse just before that, and Jesus said likewise of Capernaum. The only thing the Bible says about the sin of Sodom and Gomorah is, But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. Gen. 13:13, ...and the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous. Gen. 18:20. The Bible mentions Sodomites, which to my knowledge were male temple prostitutes who worshiped false gods. Because they turned from God they became reprobate and did what was unnatural for them, which is not the same thing as someone who hits puberty and discovers they are attracted to the same sex. I think if you study the six or so passages people use to justify their beliefs about gay people, and there are plenty of studies online of that, and you get to know some gay people, you will find that there are many misconceptions and stereotypes and plain lies and wild speculation about them, and you will find the Bible does not teach what you think it does about them. Just sayin'. That's just my beliefs.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
They teach what Jesus taught as truth.
**sigh**
how do you determine what they taught is what jesus taught?
besides, what we have, the four gospels, there is no mention of jesus ever said anything about homosexuality


how about this...
are you married? do you plan on getting married...well paul thinks it's not a good idea to get married because "the time is short"
have you morned for someone that died since your conversion...well paul seems to think that is a waste of time too...
so if you adhere to these ideals then hats off to ya...:areyoucra

if you don't agree with these ideals then you adhere to cherry picking.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
God spoke against homosexuality in the ot-- in fact part of the reason behind destroying Sodom and Gommorah was the acts of homosexuality, fornication,pedophilia. In the NT Paul clearly stated that God opposed homosexuality. If one applys 1 cor 6:9-11 to mankind they get this conclusion-- The road leading to life( eternal) is cramped-FEW will find it.
The OT spoke against violent and immoral same-sex acts. Nothing is said about committed same-sex relationships. Same for Paul.

God does not oppose homosexuality -- only the violent and immoral acts -- whether homosexual or heterosexual.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Yah, except that the passage in question deals with idolatry specifically -- not homosexuality. Perhaps a real Christian would exegete the passage properly before passing judgment on another person?

I have a sinking feeling he doesn't know what "idolatry" means, and assumed it meant gay sex.

I only wish it were so simple a ten year old could understand it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The OT spoke against violent and immoral same-sex acts. Nothing is said about committed same-sex relationships. Same for Paul.

God does not oppose homosexuality -- only the violent and immoral acts -- whether homosexual or heterosexual.

The only passage in the Bible where a same-sex act is portrayed as "violent and immoral" that I can think of is the one where the gang attempts to commit same-sex gang rape against the angels visiting Lot, and even in that case, it seems like the violent and immoral nature of this isn't the problem, since it's portrayed as acceptable for Lot to offer his daughters to the mob instead.

I think that there *are* a significant number of passages in the Bible that imply that God hates homosexuality. It's just that there are many others that imply that God is okay with it, and that imply that it's wrong for one person to condemn another over it. However, as someone who thinks that the Bible was written by many authors over centuries, I don't find it surprising that it would have multiple positions on an issue. I realize what I'm saying would create problems for someone approaching the text with the assumption that it had one unified message created according to one plan.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The only passage in the Bible where a same-sex act is portrayed as "violent and immoral" that I can think of is the one where the gang attempts to commit same-sex gang rape against the angels visiting Lot, and even in that case, it seems like the violent and immoral nature of this isn't the problem, since it's portrayed as acceptable for Lot to offer his daughters to the mob instead.

I think that there *are* a significant number of passages in the Bible that imply that God hates homosexuality. It's just that there are many others that imply that God is okay with it, and that imply that it's wrong for one person to condemn another over it. However, as someone who thinks that the Bible was written by many authors over centuries, I don't find it surprising that it would have multiple positions on an issue. I realize what I'm saying would create problems for someone approaching the text with the assumption that it had one unified message created according to one plan.
Here's the thing:
In Lot's culture, as I understand it, visitors were required to be given quarter and protection. They were expected, in return, to participate in family activities. In that culture, where honor was embodied in males and shame was embodied in females, it would have been considered more honorable for a man to take a woman than for a man to take a man. Since the girls embodied shame in any case, it would not have been more shameful to them to have been raped. However, for a man to be raped would mean that he would have taken shame upon himself, instead of honor. By offering his daughters instead of his visitors, Lot was preserving male honor, while doing his daughters relatively little shame.

There are two other passages in the OT that deal ostensibly with the homosexual act. Both are in Leviticus. In Leviticus 18:22, several sexual indiscretions are listed. They are, with the exception of the homosexual act, defined as "defiling." Only the homosexual act is listed as an "abomination." If I remember correctly, the term "abomination" is usually used as a cultural, not a moral injunction. In other words, while incest and bestiality defile a person, the homosexual act is, in that culture, an abomination -- that is, a cultural (not a moral) taboo. Additionally, since orientation was not even a concept in ancient times, the passage could not have been against homosexuality -- only against the act, itself. It's highly likely that the term relates more to rape than to loving, committed relationships.

The other passage, Leviticus 20:13, we find the same sort of thing. These are not acts of long-term, committed love. These are acts of rampant lust. Therefore, it is the lust, and not the act, itself, that is prohibited.

There are three NT passages that deal with homosexuality. Romans 1:18-32 is an interesting passage. It's talking about knowing a thing and choosing another. It talks about people who knew God, but engaged in idolatry. As a corollary to that, it says that men and women exchanged natural urges for unnatural urges. In other words, these were not people who were homosexuals in committed relationships. These were heterosexuals who, through unbridled lust, "went the other way." Again, not an injunction against homosexuality, but against lust.

I Corinthians 6:9 presents us with Sodomites and male prostitutes. As we've already determined that the events at Sodom were violence and not homosexuality, we can safely assume that the reference is to rape, not homosexual love. As for male prostitutes, the injunction is against prostitution, not committed, loving relationships, and may refer to the practice of selling young boys into sexual slavery.

I Timothy 1:10 also speaks of Sodomites, as above.

I just don't think that any of the passages speak against either the homosexual orientation, or homosexual love. I think that's something that we, in our modern mind set, have projected onto the texts. In any case, for the Gentile Xtian, who is not bound to follow OT Law, the first three don't apply to him.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
1 Corinthians actually says "sodomites"? It's been a while since I read Angellous' discussion of that passage, but IIRC, the word used translated as "soft" or "effeminate" with the implication that it referred to homosexuality. I don't know how you make the leap from that to "same-sex rapist", as you seem to be doing.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
1 Corinthians actually says "sodomites"? It's been a while since I read Angellous' discussion of that passage, but IIRC, the word used translated as "soft" or "effeminate" with the implication that it referred to homosexuality. I don't know how you make the leap from that to "same-sex rapist", as you seem to be doing.
Yeah, that term seems to be a later extrapolation based upon current understandings. But even if we use the term "effeminate," the Greek term is unclear as to what, exactly it refers to. It could refer one who engages in a homosexual act, or it could refer to some other act that identifies one as having acted "softly" or "like a woman." There's no concise translation of the term -- and certainly not one that that could be construed as "homosexual."

I was using the NRSV, which is very reliable. In either case, "effeminate" or "sodomite" need not refer to "homosexual."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yeah, that term seems to be a later extrapolation based upon current understandings. But even if we use the term "effeminate," the Greek term is unclear as to what, exactly it refers to. It could refer one who engages in a homosexual act, or it could refer to some other act that identifies one as having acted "softly" or "like a woman." There's no concise translation of the term -- and certainly not one that that could be construed as "homosexual."

I was using the NRSV, which is very reliable. In either case, "effeminate" or "sodomite" need not refer to "homosexual."

Hmm. When it comes to New Testament exegesis, I'm inclined to trust angellous, but regardless, I notice that your current position (i.e. that there are a range of possible interpretations) no longer supports your earlier point (i.e. that the reference necessarily implied violent overtones).
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Hmm. When it comes to New Testament exegesis, I'm inclined to trust angellous, but regardless, I notice that your current position (i.e. that there are a range of possible interpretations) no longer supports your earlier point (i.e. that the reference necessarily implied violent overtones).
It depends how one translates malakia. It is always used in some derogatory manner. My guess is that, if the translators used "sodomite," it was as a victim and not as an aggressor. Nonetheless, the usage implies that some sort of non-consensual contact that would (by today's standards) be violent.

You're wise to trust A_E in terms of his NT exegesis. He's very well-studied in that discipline.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were very wicked, but the Bible does not mention acts of homosexuality, fornication or pedophilia. It mentions they wanted to force themselves on the angels, which is rape. Ezekiel 16:49-50 says, Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. Ezekiel said Israel's sin was even worse than Sodom's in the verse just before that, and Jesus said likewise of Capernaum. The only thing the Bible says about the sin of Sodom and Gomorah is, But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. Gen. 13:13, ...and the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous. Gen. 18:20. The Bible mentions Sodomites, which to my knowledge were male temple prostitutes who worshiped false gods. Because they turned from God they became reprobate and did what was unnatural for them, which is not the same thing as someone who hits puberty and discovers they are attracted to the same sex. I think if you study the six or so passages people use to justify their beliefs about gay people, and there are plenty of studies online of that, and you get to know some gay people, you will find that there are many misconceptions and stereotypes and plain lies and wild speculation about them, and you will find the Bible does not teach what you think it does about them. Just sayin'. That's just my beliefs.


Yes those who are practicers of sin are deemed very wicked by God and also Jesus who does his God and Fathers will--At Matt 7:21-23--Jesus clearly states that its because they are workers of iniquity( lawlessness) = practicers of sin, is the reason why he never even knew them.( that is at their judgement.)
People are told that Jesus death covered all of their sins and its not what Gods word teaches--Jesus said many times because he meant it-- Go sin no more.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
I dont interpret the bible--Jesus,s appointed teachers do. And the point of homosexuality in Gods written word is cut and dry that a 10 year old can understand it.

Then why are you not stoning homosexuals? Are you a hypocrite? The Christian Bible says very clearly to put homosexuals to death.

They teach what Jesus taught as truth.

How can corrupt and imperfect men ever teach 100% holy truth? This is the inherent problem of many Christian Theologies, if God is perfect, man is corrupt, and The Christian Bible is 100% truth, it does not matter without being a double-standard and double-think for all their other teachings involving how the imperfect mankind cannot do good for having even .00000001% bad in them.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Too many Christians forget this command:

Matthew 7:1-5 Judge not, that you may not be judged. For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again. And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Then why are you not stoning homosexuals? Are you a hypocrite? The Christian Bible says very clearly to put homosexuals to death.



How can corrupt and imperfect men ever teach 100% holy truth? This is the inherent problem of many Christian Theologies, if God is perfect, man is corrupt, and The Christian Bible is 100% truth, it does not matter without being a double-standard and double-think for all their other teachings involving how the imperfect mankind cannot do good for having even .00000001% bad in them.


I never said men could teach 100% truth, but the teachers Jesus is with will be very close to it.
The Mosaic law was done away with or fullfilled if you want. Man could not live up to it. So now we are placed under the laws of love.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I never said men could teach 100% truth, but the teachers Jesus is with will be very close to it.
The Mosaic law was done away with or fullfilled if you want. Man could not live up to it. So now we are placed under the laws of love.
Injunctions against homosexuality are Mosaic Law.
 
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