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Featured Pedophilia & Child Marriage in Islam

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Serpent Child, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Serpent Child

    Serpent Child Member

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    I found and saw this video, it goes in-depth on this topic. I wanted to ask, what do you think of it and is this all true?

     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    More and more, poorly produced videos are driving me away from their message. This is one of them. Couldn't get through the first minute.

    .

    .
     
  3. Serpent Child

    Serpent Child Member

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    The first 5 minutes or so go through Muhammad's controversial marriage to his 9 year old bride. Then it goes to what the Qu'ran, some Hadiths and Muslims themselves say about it.
     
  4. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Yes Child brides are a issue within some communities. There's a correlation between poor education, low income and child marriages.

    The Prophet pbuh of Islam was said to have married Aisha ra when she was 6/7 and consummated the marriage when she was 9/10. Other reports say she was 15/16 - 19-21 The majority consensus amongst Sunni Scholars is she was 9 years of age.

    Today this is rare, but back then one has to remember, girls didn't have schooling, they didn't have jobs to go to. They were homemakers and with low life expectancy, most people married young. Not a single one of the distractors back then ever mentioned his marriage to Aisha ra as any sort of issue. They mentioned many other things, but that was never one of them.

    Why did God choose her to be married so young? She learned the Qur'an by heart, she was the first Scholar of Islam, she never complained about her marriage, and after the death of the Prophet pbuh, she was a staunch supporter of Islam, even leading an army into battle.
     
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  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Very true. Life is so hard, and (with the exception of modern conveniences) people are so busy just surviving that women do get married very young because of it. Children often die, and women die in childbirth, too. Some are strong and some die, but the young women are more likely to survive and to have energy to keep up with all the work. In a life full of work and misery, children are one of the few worthwhile things. Naturally nobody is concerned about marital age so much as producing children.

    I think now that food is so much easier to grow and medicine is so improved that children and women are surviving much better. Physical labor is so much less since electric motors and fueled engines that most people do not work even 10% as much as folks in the old days. Life is relatively a pleasure cruise now.
     
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  6. Muslimman

    Muslimman Member

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    Was Prophet Muhammad Pedophile ?

    According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, definition of Paedophile is:

    "Pedophile: also spelled PAEDOPHILIA, psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical paedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult."

    Indeed, his first wife Khadiga was twice widowed before and was older than him by 15 years. All his wives except Aisha were widows. Therefore, it is evident that Prophet Muhammad's marriage with Aisha was an exception and Prophet did indeed find adult relationship. Prophet also did not have low self-esteem, as it is evident from his his biography.

    Harold I. Kaplan et al. (Synopsis of Psychiatry, 5th ed. [Williams and Wilkens, 1988], p. 360) writes:

    "In addition to their paedophilia, a significant number of paedophiles are concomitantly or have previously been involved in exhibitionism, voyeurism, or rape". (Voyeurism is the recurrent preoccupation with fantasised or acts that involve seeking out or observing people who are naked, or are engaged in grooming or in sexual activity).

    It is commonly accepted by Muslims and non-muslims (un-biased) that Prophet in no sense indulged in "exhibitionism, voyeurism, or rape" or even came close to it. There is not a single reference to indicate that prophet was involved in any such act. In addition, Prophet waited for Aisha to mature and reach Puberty before the marriage was consummated, this obviously is contrary to the characteristics of a paedophile.
    Islamic Life Forum : Refuting a grave allegation by people of ignorance
    -------------
    Betrothal at very young ages was fairly common amongst the gentry in europe as well, consummation was often deferred.

    The American colonies in the 17th century have fairly widespread cases of very young marriage down to the age of seven and twelve a century ago was often the age of consent in Western societies, it still is in Japan.

    You do have to remember that the odd Western concept of childhood really is a Victorian invention and marriage for most of it's history is a binding economic pact between two families it had little to do with the lovey dovey institution we have today. In Arabic societies it was and still is often the way of settling disputes and making alliances.

    For example;
    Prince Edward of Wales married the French king’s daughter, Isabella, who was only seven years old and Romanos II married Bertha , the daughter of the King of Italy, when she was only four years old. Richard of Shrewsbury, King Edward IV’s son, married the five year old Anne Mowbray of Norfolk

    (Pope consent was a prerequisite of the time).
     
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  7. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Apart from the fact that Muhammad is supposed to be considered the moral exemplar within Islam and relevant for all times and places.
     
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  8. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Yes that's a valid point.

    He also stayed up most nights doing extra prayers, and that is not something the majority of Muslims do, life changes as human culture progresses. People have jobs to attend etc, so very few keep with that tradition of his. Similarly most people marry just one wife because the permission to to marry more than one comes with a strict code of treating them all equally. Love them equally, same amount of time spent with each, if you buy one a car, then you have to do the same for the other(s). Majority of Muslims can't do this.

    So one has to study the life of the Prophet to understand why he was instructed by God to live his life as he did. During the prime of his life, he was married to his first wife for the whole of her life (25 years) in a Monogamous relationship, she was 15 years his Senior.

    We can categorise all his marriages under two aspects of his personality:

    - Muhammad the man who needed a loving wife, children, and a stable home, so he married Khadijah and remained with only her for 25 years until she died.

    - Muhammad the Prophet who married the other wives for reasons pertaining to his duty to deliver the Message to the world. Those particular women were carefully selected, not just haphazardly “acquired” for carnal reasons, as suggested. Here are some of the reasons for which Muhammad married:

    1. To pass on Islam to the next generations as a practical legacy
    Prophet Muhammad is the only prophet without any privacy, and with a meticulously preserved tradition in speech and actions in all minute details of his public and private life. Preserved in the sharp minds of his wives and his Companions, those narrations comprise the “daily life manual” for Muslims to follow until the end of time. The fact that Islam was spread on the shoulders of women and preserved in their hearts is a great honor to the females of this Ummah. The books of authentic Hadith attribute more than 3,000 narrations and Prophetic traditions to his wives alone.

    2. To cement the relations of the budding nation
    In a tribal society, it was customary to seal treaties through marrying into tribes. Muhammad’s closest Companions later became the four caliphs who led Islam at the critical stage after his death. Two of them were the fathers of his wives `A’ishah (daughter of Abu Bakr) and Hafsa (daughter of `Umar); the other two married his daughters (`Uthman married Ruqayyah and Zaynab in succession, and `Ali married Fatimah).

    3. To teach Muslims compassion with women
    He taught them to be compassionate not just to the young and beautiful maidens, but more so to the weak and destitute widows, divorcees, orphans, and elderly women. Islam teaches that women are to be respected, protected, and cared for by their men folk. They’re not to be cast out to face a harsh life alone while able men around them just pity them and do nothing to help, or worse, use their weakness to take them as mistresses!

    4. To offer a practical role model to Muslims until the end of time
    Although many believing women often approached Muhammad offering him themselves in marriage, he politely turned down their offers. Most of his wives after the death of Khadijah were old, devoid of beauty, and previously married, except `A’ishah, who was the only young virgin. He married from other nations and religions; some were the daughters of his worst enemies, and his marriage to one woman won all her people into Islam. Regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he was a model example of equal justice and kindness to them all, and he would never discriminate among them.

    Recent non-Muslim writers who had the opportunity to study the life of the prophet first-hand reach a similar conclusion about his plural marriages.

    John L. Esposito, Professor of Religion and Director of the Centre for International Studies at the College of the Holy Cross, says that most of these marriages had "political and social motives" (Islam: The Straight Path, Oxford University Press, 1988, p. 19). This he explained as follows: "As was customary for Arab chiefs, many were political marriages to cement alliances. Others were marriages to the widows of his companions who had fallen in combat and were in need of protection" (John L. Esposito, Islam: The Straight Path, pp. 19-20). Esposito reminds us of the following historical fact: "Though less common, polygyny was also permitted in biblical and even in postbiblical Judaism. From Abraham, David, and Solomon down to the reformation period, polygyny was practiced" (p. 19).

    Another non-Muslim Caesar E. Farah writes as follows: "In the prime of his youth and adult years Muhammad remained thoroughly devoted to Khadijah and would have none other for consort. This was an age that looked upon plural marriages with favor and in a society that in pre-Biblical and post-Biblical days considered polygamy an essential feature of social existence. David had six wives and numerous concubines (2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3) and Solomon was said to have had as many as 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3). Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines (2 Chronicles 11:21).

    The New Testament contains no specific injunction against plural marriages. It was commonplace for the nobility among the Christians and Jews to contract plural marriages. Luther spoke of it with toleration" (Caesar E. Farah, Islam: Beliefs and Observances, 4th edition, Barron's, U.S. 1987, p. 69). Caesar Farah then concluded that Muhammad's plural marriages were due "partly to political reasons and partly to his concern for the wives of his companions who had fallen in battle defending the nascent Islamic community" (p. 69).

    Why did prophet Mohammad (pbuh) marry many wives
     
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  9. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    None of that justifies sex with a 9 year old.

    Because nothing ever can.

    Also I am pro polygyny, so you've no need to justify it to me.
     
    #9 Rival, Jun 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
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  10. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    As believers we can never know why God decrees certain matters. What we do know is, without Aisha, may God be pleased with her, we wouldn't have half as much information on the Prophet's life that we do. Similarly we can't question why God chose Mary, may God be pleased with her, to give birth to Jesus pbuh when she was 12-14 years of age. Nor can we question the wisdom behind Isaac pbuh marrying Rebecca when she was aged 3-9.

    God knows best.
     
  11. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Not being a Christian I'm not bothered about Marie, but 14 years doesn't bother me and people aren't using that as a moral exemplar.

    This is what the Jewish Encyclopaedia says about Rebekah:

    "The Rabbis disagree as to the age of Rebekah at the time of her marriage to Isaac. The statement of the Seder 'Olam Rabbah (i.) and Gen. R. (lvii. 1) that Abraham was informed of Rebekah's birth when he ascended Mount Moriah for the 'Aḳedah, is interpreted by some as meaning that Rebekah was born at that time, and that consequently she was only three years old at the time of her marriage. Other rabbis, however, conclude from calculations that she was fourteen years old, and that therefore she was born eleven years before the 'Aḳedah, both numbers being found in different manuscripts of the Seder 'Olam Rabbah (comp. Tos. to Yeb. 61b). The "Sefer ha-Yashar" (section "Ḥayye Sarah," p. 38a, Leghorn, 1870) gives Rebekah's age at her marriage as ten years."

    REBEKAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com


    So since her age will remain unknown, I can't make an argument one way or the other.
     
  12. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    You left out that this battle was against other Muslims which created the original divide between Sunni and Shia forces.
     
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  13. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    As explained God had his reasons, and it's not for us to question. There are Christian Countries today based on the Torah where age of consent is 12-15. Including Germany, some Countries in Africa and South America. In Saudi Arabia the age is 18 years for consent.

    Child marriages are uncommon now with higher life expectancy, Schooling, University and Jobs now helping women to lead very different lives.

    Well as you follow Noahide Laws stipulated in the Torah and Talmud, this is a important point:

    Firstly there is no minimum age set in the Torah.
    Rashi’s commentary on Genesis 25:20 says:

    Forty years old: For when Abraham came from Mount Moriah, he was informed that Rebecca had been born. Isaac was then thirty-seven years old, for at that time Sarah died, and from the time that Isaac was born until the “Binding” [of Isaac], when Sarah died, were thirty-seven years, for she was ninety years old when Isaac was born, and one hundred and twenty-seven when she died, as it is stated (above 23:1): “The life of Sarah was [a hundred and twenty-seven years.”] This makes Isaac thirty-seven years old, and at that time, Rebecca was born. He waited for her until she would be fit for marital relations-three years-and then married her.

    [From Gen. Rabbah 57:1
    [Retrieved it from this website: Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 25 (Parshah Chayei Sarah and Toldot)] Scroll down to verse 20 and the associated commentary.

    Again, God knows best.
     
  14. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    We are talking religion, not politics. Peace
     
  15. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    It is an unpopular opinion, but anything 12+ doesn't bother me.

    Rashi is not the only commentator. There are many commentators and Rabbis with many different opinions.

    Also, girls have their Bat Miztvahs at 12, which, as I've stated, I've no problem with. The age was generally set at the onset of the menses, which in girls generally comes at around 12-15. This combined with things like pubic hair, breast growth and so on.

    There is also this passage in the Prophet Ezekiel:

    'I passed by you, and saw you flailing about in your blood. As you lay in your blood, I said to you, “Live! and grow up like a plant of the field.” You grew up and became tall and arrived at full womanhood your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare.
    I passed by you again and looked on you; you were at the age for love.
    I spread the edge of my cloak over you, and covered your nakedness: I pledged myself to you and entered into a covenant with you, says the Lord God, and you became mine.'
    -16:6-8.
     
    #15 Rival, Jun 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  16. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    A bit disingenuous as Islam is a complete way of life. There is no separation between the religion and its political adventures, especially in relation to the battle that was so significant in Islamic history.
     
  17. suncowiam

    suncowiam Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget that early humans had to reproduce at an early age to successfully continue the human race as humans had shorter lives. This was more due to the environment.

    So it's unfair to compare past to present. But now, that we have more life span for humans to mature and grow, I think we can set a higher age limit on sex.

    Being married and having kids is a huge responsibility and sacrifice on all the individuals involved.

    Just focus on what we know now as facts and how we need to deal with the present day environment.
     
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  18. Serpent Child

    Serpent Child Member

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    Did any of you even watch the whole video? Only like the first 5 minutes are about muhammeds marriage, the rest has nothing to do with that. This video is mainly NOT about his marriages. It's about pedophilia and child marriages within Islam.
    For example he goes into how you can rape a baby in Islam if they can withstand the penetration in Sunni while you have to wait 9 lunar years to do it in Shia. You can do any other sexual acts with a baby. This is a basic thing he made if you truly cannot stand to watch the video, he also provides sources in his video description:

    Instagram post by Occult Scientist • Jun 26, 2017 at 6:35pm UTC


    @Skwim @Muslim-UK
    @Brickjectivity @Muslimman
    @suncowiam @YmirGF @Rival
     
    #18 Serpent Child, Jun 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  19. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    I was already aware of this.

    I was just responding to Muslim-UK.
     
  20. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    The video is junk and spreading misinformation. Muslims only accept Qur'an and authentic Hadiths. We couldn't care less about anything else, especially when people choose to misquote Arabic texts. If there was any truth people would be inviting Muslims to have televised debates. That would certainly throw a spanner in the works of the World fastest growing Religion, wouldn't it.

    Minimum Age For Marriage In The Quran
     
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