1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Peace & Security or Sudden Destruction?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    Ncache! Let’s break down your OP then. Then we can see if I’ve misunderstood the OP, or whether you simply misunderstood Thessalonians 5:3.



    Does the increased homicide rate make the nations more optimistic and likely to cry “peace and security” or less likely?

    If increased death rates make nations more optimistic, and thus more likely to cry “peace and security”, can you explain exactly how this social dynamic interacts?

    Well let’s look at what it DOES say then:


    Perhaps I did misunderstand. Maybe you are quoting these things to show the nations are less likely to shout “peace and security” then at any time in recent history. But IMO, that does not explain why you think “Optimism run high among many”.

    I think we just did. But that's not all I've found.
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,980
    Ratings:
    +12,247
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    It's an analysis of what Jesus taught in the context of the times, the situation, and Jewish Law. Your response simply does not reflect any of that, thus is dangerously bogus because it allows innocent people to be decimated by aggressive forces, whether that be on the personal level or the societal level. Therefore, it does it not stand up to common sense nor common decency, plus it encourages self-centeredness (not willing to help others in need), which is the opposite of that which Jesus taught.

    Anyhow, it is too much in error to take a particular verse(s) and not put it into context, which is that which any good theologian will do.

    Take care.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    This was directed to @metis

    This @Hubert Farnsworth :

    Since you advised @metis that JW’s have nothing to do with the topic and discussion, and there is no need “to be introducing argument not related in any way to the OP, or the thread.”, who is this religion that your being coy with, now that JW’s are eliminated from this topic?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,957
    Ratings:
    +5,231
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    The preliminaries of satan's world rulership have been unfolding for decades. It all set up and ready to go...just waiting for the right moment to introduce the solution that everyone has been waiting for. The propaganda will work.

    Once the first domino falls, the rest will follow in quick succession, just like it did in 1914. A year when the prospects for peace had never been greater for the world....but then in an obscure place a man was assassinated and the events that followed plunged the whole world into a war that no one expected. That was the year we told people to watch out for.....we didn't know what was going to happen, but we publicized it anyway as a year of importance. As that year drew to a close, people though we had just failed again with indicating the fulfillment of prophesy.....but in October of that year....peace was taken away from the world and it has never recovered. The "last days" of the present system had begun.....all the features of the sign that Jesus gave have undergone fulfillment right before our eyes....the last few events are all that is needed to finish it all off. Not imminent? You can think so if you wish.

    It will come from a direction that no one expects.....wait for it. (Matthew 24:42-44) Humans are suckers for propaganda.

    As I said, the mechanics of this 'one world government' have been in the works for decades. The powers that be will take control by deception and people will support what they think is the best solution to the problem that is being offered to a world in turmoil. The enforcers are already trained and ready to implement the change that is coming. You won't get much warning if you are taken in by the suggestion that "peace and security" can be accomplished by any human means.

    As for the anti-Christ...."the Greek term has a twofold meaning. It refers to that which is anti, or opposed to, Christ. It may also refer to a false Christ, one in the place of Christ. All people, organizations, or groups that falsely claim to represent Christ or claim to be the Messiah or that oppose Christ and his disciples can properly be called antichrists.—1John 2:22."
    (WT Online Library)

    We patiently wait, (as we always have) knowing what is coming and having confidence in our God to sustain us through it.
     
  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    5,474
    Ratings:
    +3,138
    Religion:
    Christian
    That’s why John 13:34-35 is even more imperative! ‘All will recognize My disciples, by the love they have.’

    And those that don’t....won’t.

    Isaiah 2:2-4...”
    2And it shall come to pass in the end of days, [that] the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow unto it.

    3And many peoples shall go and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and Jehovah's word from Jerusalem.

    4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall reprove many peoples; and they shall forge their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-knives: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.“

    A global religion, that follows these tenets.
     
  6. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,557
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Who or what will be doing the destroying of the wicked for 1 Thessalonians 5:3 to be fulfilled?
     
  7. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    I like Matthew Henry's commentary:

    Chapter 5
    The apostle, having spoken in the end of the foregoing chapter concerning the resurrection, and the second coming of Christ, proceeds to speak concerning the uselessness of enquiring after the particular time of Christ’s coming, which would be sudden and terrible to the wicked, but comfortable to the saints (v. 1-5). He then exhorts them to the duties of watchfulness, sobriety, and the exercise of faith, love, and hope, as being suitable to their state (v. 6-10). In the next words he exhorts them to several duties they owed to others, or to one another (v. 11-15), afterwards to several other Christian duties of great importance (v. 16-22), and then concludes this epistle (v. 23-28).

    Verses 1-5 In these words observe,I. The apostle tells the Thessalonians it was needless or useless to enquire about the particular time of Christ’s coming: Of the times and seasons you need not that I write unto you, v. 1. The thing is certain that Christ will come, and there is a certain time appointed for his coming; but there was no need that the apostle should write about this, and therefore he had no revelation given him; nor should they or we enquire into this secret, which the Father has reserved in his own power. Of that day and hour knoweth no man. Christ himself did not reveal this while upon earth; it was not in his commission as the great prophet of the church: nor did he reveal this to his apostles; there was no need of this. There are times and seasons for us to do our work in: these it is our duty and interest to know and observe; but the time and season when we must give up our account we know not, nor is it needful that we should know them. Note, There are many things which our vain curiosity desires to know which there is no necessity at all of our knowing, nor would our knowledge of them do us good.II. He tells them that the coming of Christ would be sudden, and a great surprise to most men, v. 2. And this is what they knew perfectly, or might know, because our Lord himself had so said: In such an hour as you think not, the Son of man cometh, Mt. 24:44 . So Mk. 13:35, Mk. 13:36 , Watch you therefore, for you know not when the master of the house cometh; lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. And no doubt the apostle had told them, as of the coming of Christ, so also of his coming suddenly, which is the meaning of his coming as a thief in the night,Rev. 16:15 .
     
  8. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    I appreciate the time and effort you placed in your response Deeje. I think it was a good one, however we are going to disagree on the meaning of the word "imminent" and what I think is a rather unhealthy and unnecessary focus on the last days.

    We all have jobs to do as Christians, and while we wait we must endure.

    "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come" (Matthew 24:6)

    Nations continue to rise up against nations just as they always have, but nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom as described at Matthew 24:7? Not yet. Mat 24:7 describes individual nations and provinces struggling to survive, feed, and protect their constituents at the expense of the other due to the cataclysms unleashed in Revelation.

    We're not there yet.
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,557
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    So, are you saying that it is Christ who will destroy all wicked people? Who are they whom Christ will destroy? Because it is to be "fulfilled" is it not premeditated?
     
  10. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,557
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    I can see that Christians (not all!) are accusing Jesus of premeditated murder. If life unfolds on the Earth like they say it will according to their interpretation of the Word of God, there will never be peace. Ever! That's right. Even after what you assume really happens to all "the wicked" it will have happened by premeditated murder. I am not making this up. YOU are.

    You know what I mean. I hate when they play dumb.
     
  11. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,557
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    You don't? It is because your way is your king getting his way by killing people.
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,750
    Ratings:
    +1,315
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Less likely, seems obvious to me.

    That is not what the OP is saying.


    Not perhaps. I told you, you didn't understand.
    No. Let me explain.

    I don't know if you have ever dealt with anything called an outline.
    Some documents use an outline, which consists of an introducing - in some cases, an overview, a body, and a conclusion.
    There are in actuality three parts, or divisions. Ah. You believe the Trinity, don't you? There you go - three in one. :D Each performing different functions, but all making up the whole.
    I'll just show you the introduction, you can figure out the other parts,
    Optimism runs high among many...
    Will the Nations really bring Peace and Security, or will their cry spell Sudden Destruction?
    1 Thessalonians 5:3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape. 

    Once you read the introduction, just break slightly, then consider some facts not connected to the introduction by chronology, yet containing information that relates to it.
    I hope I haven't confused you. Otherwise, you'd better dump the Trinity, since it's not helping you.
    Regardless... it's still a good idea to lose it. :D

    The part containing the coming call for Peace and Security is mentioned in the body (I hope you opened and read the spoilers).
    The conclusion is quite brief, but I hope you get the point. :)
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,750
    Ratings:
    +1,315
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    What do you mean, "JWs have nothing to do with the topic"? How will it be any fun without us involved? Kidding. [​IMG]

    I said I didn't create the thread to discuss JWs.
    In other words, things like why we refuse blood transfusions; Why we drag our children through the hot sun... etc. etc. a whole long list which I won't mention, since I am not discussing JWs, :D then I think it would be better to have a separate thread - Although those have already come up many times.

    I didn't say one shouldn't mention JWs - which there is a difference between mentioning and discussing.
    I'm not sure if there is much difference between @metis and @Hubert Farnsworth, but it seems to me, there were some posts that had no relation to the thread, so I encourage metis to present an argument against something in the OP, if he wanted, because I wasn't interested in... as I said.
    However, I won't complain anymore. :nomouth:

    The point that was raised about religious role in violence was a very good point imo, because I think it does shed some light on the problem of increasing crime and violence.
    So it's a question worth answering, and I think it is important to make the point that the scriptures show that indeed as is evident to all, including Hubert, religion is part of the corrupt system.

    I did throw out the question that given an answer, one would have to think about religion specifically, which could :oops: lead to discussing JWs, so I see your point.
    However, I wasn't being coy. Honestly.
    It was an innocent discussion that could or could not lead to mentioning JWs, which could or could not lead to discussing them. Hmmm.

    Anyway, point taken.
    Thanks for the observation.
    Discuss away.

    So were you mentioning JWs, or did you have something else in mind? :D
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,750
    Ratings:
    +1,315
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Sorry @Deeje, I'm not responding to you. I think RF has some issues. I'm not sure what's being done. I hope @Oeste realizes the posts to him.
     
  15. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,162
    Ratings:
    +1,397
    Religion:
    Baha'i inspired liberal
    For me the great tragedy of all this is that it seems to propose that since man can’t have an idealised state of Uber-peace, he should give up his attempt to struggle for what peace he can obtain.

    The UN goals are highly praisworthy and will have a more positive impact on the world than no attempt and I see criticism of their lofty ideals on your part as part of the weakness of your ideology.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,557
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    her
     
  17. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,557
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Weakness......or worse?
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,750
    Ratings:
    +1,315
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I agree with anyone making an honest and sincere, un-hypocritical genuine effort for good.
    Is that what's happening here?
    Your optimism, like many others, run high.

    There are others that are not that optimistic. Not because they don't want good, or they don't agree with, or wouldn't like to see all nationalities of people of all languages united in peace, for good.
    They just don't see any evidence for it.

    However, they see evidence of the promise of peace and security, through the means expressed, contrary to human promises.
    Is that a good thing, or bad, in your view?
     
  19. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,557
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
  20. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,557
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Have you imagined for one half of a second that nobody might be able to imagine peace because YOU SAY IT IS NOT POSSIBLE (without doing it your way)?
     
Loading...