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Pe****ta Primacy, Palistinian Prophet, & why Jesus didn't speak Syriac

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, he's claiming they exist.
He's not. He's substituting "Syriac" for "Aramaic" and "Pe****ta" for "ancient Aramaic". There aren't hidden manuscripts somewhere that only he has access to. They're widely known and gained credence through their use in particular churches. That's why the Pe****ta and the other Syriac manuscript traditions exist: early Christian Semitic-speaking communities. The manuscripts have all been collected and stored and categorized by scholars. They're stored in university libraries, official church libraries, and museums. We don't have autographs (the real originals) in somebody's house somewhere. We have copied in hundreds of languages, a few of them fairly ancient. The Semitic ones that are ancient are in Syriac.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Well, he's claiming they exist.

So what? Claiming that something exists is far different from observing something that actually exists.

I mean, you wouldn't buy a vial of Michael Jackson's breath on ebay just because some crackhead says it's real.

Come on, man. You're not that gullible.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
Yes, but did he teach you Aramaic? (or Syriac, or Greek, or Coptic)

Fighting a war is one thing (respect - my late grandfather fought at Normandy). But you know that they don't put the rocket scientists on the front lines.

Some things actually require disciplined study. Fighting and driving don't.


My point was, the so-called smartest person in the world can learn something from the so-called dumbest person in the world if they listen.

But in your case, education is only learned ignorance.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Yes, but did he teach you Aramaic? (or Syriac, or Greek, or Coptic)
Awoon's Dad didn't need to teach Awoon Aramaic, any more than your Dad needed to teach you how to qualify to fit gas boilers, or panel-beat titanium.

I feel convinced that if you were time-travelled back to Galilee circa CE10 that nobody, absolutely nobody, would have the faintest clue about anything that you tried to communicate to them. Do you honestly think that you could communicate with those people in spoken language? Within two minutes you might have become impatient, irritated and condescending towards them. Twenty years later...... (edit!)Cephas might have chucked you in the lake! :D

Fighting a war is one thing ............. But you know that they don't put the rocket scientists on the front lines.
Maybe that's why history is riddled with countless reports of thousands of lives lost in battles...... the idiots who thought that they were the rocket-scientists of their age, making stupid decisions, far to the rear. :facepalm:

Some things actually require disciplined study. Fighting and driving don't.
Those (together) are the most amazingly 'blind' and 'uneducated' sentences that I have read on RF this month. :facepalm:
 

gnostic

The Lost One
angellous_evangellous said:
I mean, you wouldn't buy a vial of Michael Jackson's breath on ebay just because some crackhead says it's real.

Ha! You couldn't even give anything that belong to Michael Jackson for free even if it is real. In my eyes, I still see him as a child-molester, even though he wasn't never convicted as one. Paying off the father doesn't make him innocent.

And why on earth would anyone want to have possess his smelly, drug-ridden, sickly breath?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
My point was, the so-called smartest person in the world can learn something from the so-called dumbest person in the world if they listen.

I certainly agree. But the dumbest person in the world who has worked hard and learned Greek cannot learn [anything about Greek] from the smartest person in the world who thinks that it's Aramaic that rhymes.

This has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence, except for the raw material IQ that is required to learn, which most of us have.

In the context of this conversation, actually knowing a bit about history and ancient languages is a significant advantage. If our friend had a basic understanding (like reading wikipedia articles) about these topics, he'd *hopefully* realize that his sources are below second rate.

In my opinion, it's abundantly obvious that our friend is so blinded by his bias -- which is intrigued by anything that someone says is against church tradition (even if it is fabricated or falsified) -- that he pushes aside not some but all useful sources.

The tragically ironic thing is that church tradition gets almost everything wrong. Instead of focusing on these many, many weaknesses, our friend chooses topics that are falsified (Nazareth) or simply don't exist (the ancient Aramaic NT).
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ha! You couldn't even give anything that belong to Michael Jackson for free even if it is real. In my eyes, I still see him as a child-molester, even though he wasn't never convicted as one. Paying off the father doesn't make him innocent.

And why on earth would anyone want to have possess his smelly, drug-ridden, sickly breath?

'OldBadger's Theorem of Inappropriate Analogies'

Inappropriate analogies increase in proportion to delusions about intellectual abilities.

:D

:yes:
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I certainly agree. But the dumbest person in the world who has worked hard and learned Greek cannot learn [anything about Greek] from the smartest person in the world who thinks that it's Aramaic that rhymes.
But if the smartest person in the world thinks something, isn't it therefore true? I'm more confused than a badger with a perm.
Inappropriate analogies increase in proportion to delusions about intellectual abilities.
Damn.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
I certainly agree. But the dumbest person in the world who has worked hard and learned Greek cannot learn [anything about Greek] from the smartest person in the world who thinks that it's Aramaic that rhymes.

This has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence, except for the raw material IQ that is required to learn, which most of us have.

In the context of this conversation, actually knowing a bit about history and ancient languages is a significant advantage. If our friend had a basic understanding (like reading wikipedia articles) about these topics, he'd *hopefully* realize that his sources are below second rate.

In my opinion, it's abundantly obvious that our friend is so blinded by his bias -- which is intrigued by anything that someone says is against church tradition (even if it is fabricated or falsified) -- that he pushes aside not some but all useful sources.

The tragically ironic thing is that church tradition gets almost everything wrong. Instead of focusing on these many, many weaknesses, our friend chooses topics that are falsified (Nazareth) or simply don't exist (the ancient Aramaic NT).


ok thanks
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
He's not. He's substituting "Syriac" for "Aramaic" and "Pe****ta" for "ancient Aramaic". There aren't hidden manuscripts somewhere that only he has access to. They're widely known and gained credence through their use in particular churches. That's why the Pe****ta and the other Syriac manuscript traditions exist: early Christian Semitic-speaking communities. The manuscripts have all been collected and stored and categorized by scholars. They're stored in university libraries, official church libraries, and museums. We don't have autographs (the real originals) in somebody's house somewhere. We have copied in hundreds of languages, a few of them fairly ancient. The Semitic ones that are ancient are in Syriac.

Nope. He has actually claimed to have translated from the original Aramaic texts stored in a small Eastern church. I think I have the site bookmarked, and will bring it later. If you read the material I provided, you will see that what he is saying is that no one to date has made a translation from the ancient Aramaic texts. We're not talking about 'Old Syriac', which is a translation from the Greek.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
godnotgod said:
Nope. He has actually claimed to have translated from the original Aramaic texts stored in a small Eastern church. I think I have the site bookmarked, and will bring it later. If you read the material I provided, you will see that what he is saying is that no one to date has made a translation from the ancient Aramaic texts. We're not talking about 'Old Syriac', which is a translation from the Greek.

That's just it, godnotgod.

There are no ancient Aramaic NT books.

The OT books of Daniel and Ezra were originally written in Aramaic, and few other OT texts can be found in the Qumran caves, hence the Dead Sea Scrolls, but nothing in Aramaic written of the NT gospels or the epistles.

Like LegionOnommoi have been telling you, the only Semitic texts of the New Testament were written in Old Syriaic.

Any claim of NT books written in ancient Aramaic is utterly bogus.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nope. He has actually claimed to have translated from the original Aramaic texts stored in a small Eastern church.

He isn't. Translating the "Aramaic bible" used in that Church means using the Syriac bible of the Eastern church. He's not translating manuscripts and almost certainly couldn't anyway. Let's imagine he can actually read ancient Aramaic (not Syriac) just perfectly. I can do that with Latin or Greek. I can't translate ancient manuscripts because
1) They're extremely difficult to read. The script differs, they're filled with holes, they contain numerous errors, many of the words are basically blobs of ink or for other reasons practically indecipherable, etc. That's why people who can read ancient languages without a problem (in the way I can with some, but not most ancient language I can read) don't necessarily have the skill to work with actual manuscripts. The difference between manuscripts and prepared texts is quite vast.
2) Nobody translates a manuscript (with precious few examples). The Pe****ta, as I said, exists in nearly 400 manuscripts. Even Old Syriac is attested to by 2 manuscripts. People who work with these manuscripts don't bother translating them because there's no point. They prepare them for translators by noting things like where holes in the text are, describing the manuscripts in particular ways intended to be useful for researchers, etc. That way, when some group wishes to make a translation based on the original manuscripts they have an easier time finding them and navigating through them.

Finding an actual Aramaic gospel would be like striking gold. There are literally thousands of scholars in different fields who would kill to have such a text. If Alexander were claiming he had access to an actual ancient manuscript rather than simply lying about the language of the Eastern church's bible then he'd be flooded by inquiries for the manuscript and people would swarm into that small town he mentioned looking for similar ones.

If you read the material I provided, you will see that what he is saying is that no one to date has made a translation from the ancient Aramaic texts. We're not talking about 'Old Syriac', which is a translation from the Greek.
I did read it. He's either lying or he really doesn't know what the differences between the Syriac dialects and the Aramaic dialects are.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
[/COLOR]
He isn't. Translating the "Aramaic bible" used in that Church means using the Syriac bible of the Eastern church. He's not translating manuscripts and almost certainly couldn't anyway. Let's imagine he can actually read ancient Aramaic (not Syriac) just perfectly. I can do that with Latin or Greek. I can't translate ancient manuscripts because
1) They're extremely difficult to read. The script differs, they're filled with holes, they contain numerous errors, many of the words are basically blobs of ink or for other reasons practically indecipherable, etc. That's why people who can read ancient languages without a problem (in the way I can with some, but not most ancient language I can read) don't necessarily have the skill to work with actual manuscripts. The difference between manuscripts and prepared texts is quite vast.
2) Nobody translates a manuscript (with precious few examples). The Pe****ta, as I said, exists in nearly 400 manuscripts. Even Old Syriac is attested to by 2 manuscripts. People who work with these manuscripts don't bother translating them because there's no point. They prepare them for translators by noting things like where holes in the text are, describing the manuscripts in particular ways intended to be useful for researchers, etc. That way, when some group wishes to make a translation based on the original manuscripts they have an easier time finding them and navigating through them.

Finding an actual Aramaic gospel would be like striking gold. There are literally thousands of scholars in different fields who would kill to have such a text. If Alexander were claiming he had access to an actual ancient manuscript rather than simply lying about the language of the Eastern church's bible then he'd be flooded by inquiries for the manuscript and people would swarm into that small town he mentioned looking for similar ones.


I did read it. He's either lying or he really doesn't know what the differences between the Syriac dialects and the Aramaic dialects are.


I also forgot to mention that he, at another site, said that reading ancient Aramaic is no big deal.....for him...in spite of what scholars (and you) have said about the near impossibility of doing so as the ancient script is too far removed from more modern Aramaic.

In general, the West has ignored the Eastern churches as far as Biblical matters are concerned. The West has copped the attitude (as the Greek NT primacists have as well) that it is the authority in such matters. So a claim by an Eastern church that it has in its possession the originals (which they have claimed for years) has been pretty much totally ignored, or has been classified as nonsense.

As I recall, Alexander spent a bit of time writing about the Old Syriac. He knows what it is, and indicated that it is unauthentic, as it comes from the Greek.

Anyway, I will see what I can do to post the information I am referring to, bu it's been awhile, and I don't see it up front on the web right now. Alexander went into some detail about the particular church in question, even posting photos.

Later...
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
That's just it, godnotgod.

There are no ancient Aramaic NT books.

The OT BOOK of Daniel was originally written in Aramaic, and few other OT texts can be found in the Qumran caves, hence the Dead Sea Scrolls, but nothing in Aramaic written of the NT gospels or the epistles.

Like lLegionOnommoi have been telling you, the only Semitic texts of the New Testament were written in Old Syriaic.

Any claim of NT books written in ancient Aramaic is utterly bogus.

That may or may not be.

BTW, are you familiar with this fairly recent discovery:



ancient-bible-turkey-nationalturk-02451.jpg


Ancient Bible in Aramaic dialected Syriac rediscovered in Turkey

1500 year-old ‘ Syriac ‘ Bible found in Ankara, Turkey : Vatican in shock !
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I also forgot to mention that he, at another site, said that reading ancient Aramaic is no big deal.....for him...in spite of what scholars (and you) have said about the near impossibility of doing so as the ancient script is too far removed from more modern Aramaic.
You are completely misunderstanding what I said. I can read Homeric Greek. It's a form of Greek that is older far older than the Greek of the NT. I can read Attic Greek, Doric Greek, koine Greek, etc. Guess what I can't read? Most Greek manuscripts. Why? Because although the basic alphabet remained the same it could be written in widely varying ways and that's without all the errors and other problems (like those related to age) that begin when it comes to extant manuscripts. Hell, even reading German in scripts from a century ago is a severe pain and that's printed. People who read manuscripts get trained to read manuscripts, not languages. It's a different skillset that requires not simply an understanding of languages but a familiarity with scribal hands, stand orthographic errors and customs, a careful and keen eye, and lots and lots of practice. Most people, even if they were so inclined, can't get this training or practice because 1,000+ year old manuscripts don't grow on trees. They're kept carefully in libraries and other institutions where they are preserved.

Finally, it's a waste of time as I said before. Translating a manuscript is almost always a waste of time. The only exception is when that manuscript is all we have. But we have lots of "Aramaic" NT manuscripts (they're all Syriac, which didn't exist in Jesus' day). What your guy translated was a bible. It was put together like the way the Vulgate, KJV, Armenian, & Georgian bibles were. It's not an ancient manuscript but a fabricated, compiled, and typed text designed for modern readers of Syriac.

In general, the West has ignored the Eastern churches as far as Biblical matters are concerned
This is patently false.

So a claim by an Eastern church that it has in its possession the originals (which they have claimed for years) has been pretty much totally ignored, or has been classified as nonsense.
Nobody has claimed to have originals. That would be the autographs. And all one needs to know is a bit about languages to realize that a language which didn't exist in Jesus' day (Late Aramaic, of which Syriac is a dialect) couldn't be spoken by him even if he didn't live in Palestine as Syriac wasn't spoken there (Jewish Palestinian Aramaic is). Also, nobody much cares what any church says other than that church. You don't see scholars going and consulting the Catholic church about Jesus or whether X manuscript was written by a heretic or some other nonsense. Classicists, historians, linguists, NT scholars, scholars of Judaism, Romanists, etc., are peopled by all sorts. Individually, some may believe that the Catholic church has the only say, or that the NT is inspired by god, or whatever. But as a whole the scholarly community has spent 200 years doing exactly the opposite of what would be required for a "Christian" textual history of the NT.

Nor is this an East/West thing. For one thing, Eastern Orthodoxy is just as old as the Roman Church and they're bigger into the Greek language (obviously) and they're all over the East. Also, Syriac is Eastern Aramaic and wasn't spoken in Palestine.

The Pe****ta and Syriac texts are littered with Greek loanwords. They're written in a style that didn't exist in Jesus' day in a period of Aramaic that didn't exist in Jesus' day and in a dialect that when it existed wasn't spoken where Jesus lived (Syriac).

As I recall, Alexander spent a bit of time writing about the Old Syriac. He knows what it is, and indicated that it is unauthentic, as it comes from the Greek.
Old Syriac isn't a language or a dialect. It's a script used in a particular manuscript tradition. Classical Syriac is a form of Eastern Aramaic spoken from around 200CE/AD onward.

Look at the texts or manuscripts. If you see this kind of writing- ܢܫܩܘܠ - then it's influenced by Greek and wasn't around when Jesus lived and is a dialect that wasn't spoken in the place Jesus lived when it did exist.

Alexander got his undergrad degree in filmmaking and even his English leaves something to be desired: "Yes, I do understand Aramaic to a profound level. I went to an Aramaic language school. It was a Presbyterian Church school. Our two teachers were both from Urmia, Iran, where the Aramaic language scholarship was the dominant force in Ashurai cultural life and where most of our best literary people came from. I studied religion and language from the first grade, in the language Jesus spoke! I continued my education at an American Jesuit high school, from the time I was twelve, entering the seventh grade. I studied religion with Father Merrick. I got an "A" in the course based on my presenting a final assignment on the "Proof of the Existence of God." I studied Latin at Regiopolis College in Kingston, Ontario, during my eleventh grade. Later, I completed my high school in San Francisco in 1962. I entered college and finally graduated in 1970, from the San Francisco State University, with a BA in Filmmaking."

This is not bad for a non-native speaker. That said, for a person who understands "Aramaic to a profound degree" so much that he feels qualified to translate the bible and says so as he does in the project proposal excepts from which the above is taken, this isn't great. It's idiomatically incorrect and getting the idioms down pat is essential to translation. Also, he didn't study the language Jesus did "from the first grade". Modern Aramaic dialects differ even from the Late Aramiac of the gospels let alone the Aramaic of Jesus' day (Middle Aramaic). This isn't a blog post or something where one expects spelling errors but was taken from a 1995 proposal and remains posted on his site today without corrections.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
BTW, are you familiar with this fairly recent discovery
It's not recent and it's another Syriac manuscript. It's been held for years by Turkey and nobody knows if it's fake because so far the Turkish government hasn't allowed anybody to examine it.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
This is patently false.

I meant 'ignored' in the sense that the Western churches project themselves to the West as being the authentic church.


Alexander got his undergrad degree in filmmaking and even his English leaves something to be desired: " I studied Latin at Regiopolis College in Kingston, Ontario, during my eleventh grade. Later, I completed my high school in San Francisco in 1962. I entered college and finally graduated in 1970, from the San Francisco State University, with a BA in Filmmaking."

You left out the parts about his Aramaic language capabilities.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
It's not recent and it's another Syriac manuscript. It's been held for years by Turkey and nobody knows if it's fake because so far the Turkish government hasn't allowed anybody to examine it.

Recent in terms of public awareness. According to the information I have, it came to light in 2000, but was suppressed by the Christian Church for 12 years. That's recent in terms of Biblical matters, as far as I can see.

Anyway, my point is not that this is in Galilean Aramaic by any means, but only that new discoveries are made all the time, such as this one. We SAY that an original Aramaic NT is non-existent only because we haven't found one.
 
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