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Paul's teachings.

Meshak

Active Member
Matthew 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

Yes, my family is my church.
Acts 2:42 And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to sharing [with one another], to taking of meals and to prayers.

You dont have to be forced to live by organization leaders. Jesus did not teach it to live by leaders' ideas. Jesus is the only Teacher, He says.
Acts 20:8 So there were quite a few lamps in the upper chamber where we were gathered together.

this is nothing like modern organization.
Christians were gathering together for worship before Paul had even converted. So it wasnt because of Paul, i can assure you of that.
their meeting was nothing like modern organization.
 

Meshak

Active Member
I don't see how teachings about love that explicitly demand obedience to the commandments wouldn't be considered legalism.
We have to follow Jesus to learn how to love God and love one another. We dont know how to love without Jesus. that's why Jesus was sent by His Father to teach us how to love.

Christianity is all about following Jesus' teachings and commands. we accepted Jesus as our Lord, Master, Boss.
 

Shermana

Heretic
We have to follow Jesus to learn how to love God and love one another. We dont know how to love without Jesus. that's why Jesus was sent by His Father to teach us how to love.

Christianity is all about following Jesus' teachings and commands. we accepted Jesus as our Lord, Master, Boss.

Yes, and Jesus taught how to love by following the commandments correctly, and not how the Pharisees and Sadducees were misconstruing them or failing to obey the important ones.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
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Yes, my family is my church.
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You dont have to be forced to live by organization leaders. Jesus did not teach it to live by leaders' ideas. Jesus is the only Teacher, He says.
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this is nothing like modern organization.

their meeting was nothing like modern organization.


what is 'organization' ?

Were not the early christians being 'organized' when they went preaching and when they established congregations and sent out letters and held meetings for worship?

You would need some form of organization to ensure everyone turns up on the same day or at the same time and at the same place, otherwise how will you meet 'together'.... organization is merely an orderly process by which things can be accomplished....size has nothing to do with organization.
 

Meshak

Active Member
what is 'organization' ?
You know your own organization. I dont have to explain to you. I know how JW and mains streamers operate their organization.
Were not the early christians being 'organized' when they went preaching and when they established congregations and sent out letters and held meetings for worship?
they needed leaders to teach them how to spread Jesus. they did not have any written word of Jesus.
You would need some form of organization to ensure everyone turns up on the same day or at the same time and at the same place, otherwise how will you meet 'together'.... organization is merely an orderly process by which things can be accomplished....size has nothing to do with organization.
see the above.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
where did you get the idea to have organization? That will answer your own question, friend.
Jesus was a Jew -- in fact, a Rabbi. He worshiped in the synagogues and in the Temple (which was nothing but organized ritual). His parents brought him to Jerusalem to be circumcised (a religious ritual). He read the scroll in the synagogue (also a religious ritual, if you've ever been to synagogue). Jesus was well-versed in religious ritual, and, in fact, we have archaeological evidence of the early proto-church organizing itself into communities -- just as Jesus organized his followers into a community (vis-a-vis the "last supper"). I'd have to say that our idea of organization comes, at least in part, from Judaic worship practices, in which Jesus, himself, took part.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus did not teach it to live by leaders' ideas. Jesus is the only Teacher, He says.
And yet... Jesus asks us to follow him (implying that we are to live by a leader's ideas). You said so yourself: that we are to obey Jesus' commands (thereby teaching us to live by leaders' ideas).
Your argument is an epic fail here.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
their meeting was nothing like modern organization.
Actually, archaeology and history tell us that their meeting together was quite startlingly similar to the way we meet together today. We organize our communities differently -- that's true enough -- but then, their society was nothing like modern society either, so it stands to reason that, as cultural needs change, organizational needs change, too.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I know how JW and mains streamers operate their organization.
Mk. I'm considered to be a "mainstreamer" as you say. Why don't you demonstrate your "knowledge" of how my organization operates?

The gauntlet is thrown down.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Here you go:


Keeping His commandments are requirement for salvation.

He are the verses to support my claim:

1. John 14:15
◦New King James Version
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.

2. John 14:21
◦New King James Version
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

3. John 15:10
◦New King James Version
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

4. Acts 15:24
◦New King James Version
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment—)

5. 1 Corinthians 7:19
◦New King James Version
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

6. 1 Timothy 6:14
◦New King James Version
that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,

7. 1 John 2:3
◦New King James Version
The Test of Knowing Him ] Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

8. 1 John 2:4
◦New King James Version
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

9. 1 John 3:22
◦New King James Version
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

10. 1 John 3:24
◦New King James Version
The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error ] Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

11. 1 John 5:2
◦New King James Version
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.

12. 1 John 5:3
◦New King James Version
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

13. Revelation 12:17
◦New King James Version
And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

14. Revelation 14:12
◦New King James Version
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And here is confirmation from Jesus of keeping Ten commandments as requirement.

Matthew 19:16-19
New International Version (NIV)
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’

Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Very nice work...but really only one of those mentioned salvation, Matthew 19:16-19. Unfortunately you failed to continue. Mathew 19:25-26, "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Now let me give you one that directly relates to salvation so that you know what it looks like, " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:16-18
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Paul reestablished legalism...
Legaliasm never went away. Law is necessary for there to be unrighteousness and judgement. Judgment of man has never been done away with.
Romans 3:4-6 KJV: "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?"

...where as Jesus did not teach it at all.
Yet you gave me a list of what you thought was Jesus saying follow the Law.
 
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