Paul's distortion of the Torah message

[YoursTrue]

Paul did NOT teach that it was a moral responsibility for Jews to be circumcised, observe the Shabbat, keep kosher, etc.

May I ask if you are a Noahide? Perhaps you said and I didn't see that. One of the reasons I ask is because I wonder if Noahides feel it is a moral responsibility to be circumcised, observe the Sabbath keep kosher, etc. Would you know if they do?

 

[YoursTrue]

I am taking to an extreme that one could go to. For example, there is a Christian movement called the Sacred Name movement that goes to similar extremes. It depends on how far wants to go.

That is certainly possible. Some say because Joshua (Yeshua) has the Divine Name incorporated in it, and because Jesus said "I and the Father are one," among other things like that, he must be YHWH. But I see nothing in the Bible to say that Jesus is YHWH. Also from the portrayal of Gamaliel in the Bible, it seems he was a rather open-minded person.

 

[YoursTrue]

We actually discussed that earlier. The Torah is clear that their are different types of transgressions of the Torah that are addressed to why someone did it. Besides, according to the Tanakh dying in this world due to a transgression of the Torah doesn't always equate to not having anything in the world to come.

It must be understood that sin, as Christians understand it, is not a concept found in the Hebrew text of the Tanakh. Just like repentence in Christiniaty is not the same as it is in Torath Mosheh.

I'm not sure what you think true Christian repentance is. But YHWH read David's heart when it struck him regarding his sin concerning Bathsheba. Therefore God forgave him. Also it seems apparent that He loved David and took into account his life course towards God. But -- nevertheless -- there is no one, absolutely no one, that can keep the Law. And God knew that, which is why He authorized sacrifice for sin. (He did not, however, offer the opportunity for sacrifice to Adam and Eve.) I believe Jesus, however, did keep the Law. Perfectly. We can discuss sin and its consequences another time. There is so much to talk about. Or learn.

 

[YoursTrue]

Actually, I didn't say that "we don't know the culture." I am saying who is to say which Chrisitian denomination has the accurate information about the text and the culture of the NT text?

For example, someone says that the writings attributed to Paul are in inerrant. I could ask, "Inerrant according to what and what standard?" Maybe Paul's writings 100% represent what the NT authors claim Jesus was about. Doesn't mean that Jesus was right, just means that Paul understood Jesus the best; maybe better than the disciples Jesus had. Maybe Paul's writings are inerrant in terms of his own personal rule of law with no connection to Jesus.

Further, one could say, "The letters of Paul are inerrant ONLY if one uses the original Greek or a particular translation of them from a particular translator." See how that could open up a whole area of intepretation since w/o dealing with who is the most reliable source of transmission?

Either the Messiah came or he did not. That's what it all boils down to in the end. With some very important side points. Such as the flood of Noah's time.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

May I ask if you are a Noahide? Perhaps you said and I didn't see that. One of the reasons I ask is because I wonder if Noahides feel it is a moral responsibility to be circumcised, observe the Sabbath keep kosher, etc. Would you know if they do?

I can answer the part of about Noachide do and don't do.

Noachides have 7 mitzvoth: 6 that stem from Adam and 1 from the time of Noach. All humans who come from Adam and and Noach are essentially morally obligated to keep the 7 mitzvoth. Essentially, you can say that all humans by default of being human are noachides, whether they accept it or not reject it or not. Similar to how most human societies have laws and require people to follow a certain code of conduct whether the citizens like it or not.

So, Avraham was a noachide who took on the mitzvah brith milah for him, his children, and his household because Hashem offered this additional mitzvah to Avraham as a type of bond between Hashem and Avraham's household. This was not a worldwide requirement. It specific to Avraham and the mission that Hashem had for him and his household in the world.

Noachides do not have the mitzvah to circumcise themselves, that was a mitzvah for Avraham and his descendants. I.e. Noachides have no moral obligation to do so. They can, if they want and they can even do so to be considered by Jews as a Geir Toshav, see link before for an explaination.

Further, the only mitzvoth that Noachides have about food are not consuming blood and not eating the limb taken from a live animal. Noachides have no mitzvah to keep the Shabbat (Sabbath) since this mitzvah was given as a sign between Hashem and the children of Israel.

Again, it is important to stress that all humans, by default, are considered to have the 7 mitzvoth as their moral compass; rather they accept that concept or not. Modern "Noachides" know what the mitzvoth are because they learn them from Jews, in some form or fashion.

The following discussons from a while back may help understand more about Noachides.

In Short - The Noachide/7 Mitvahs an explaination

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Either the Messiah came or he did not. That's what it all boils down to in the end. With some very important side points. Such as the flood of Noah's time.

Actually, it boils down to a lot more than that, especially since Noach wasn't told to go warn anyone of anything. The Tanakh makes it clear that a (מושיע) "deliverer/messiah" is one thing and a Davidic king who is a (משיח) anointed with oil is something different.

Noach was told to build a boat and gather animals. There is no such concept like this when it comes a Davidic king. Tanakh is pretty clear on what a (משיח) is and doesn't include anything like the time of Noach.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm not sure what you think true Christian repentance is. But YHWH read David's heart when it struck him regarding his sin concerning Bathsheba. Therefore God forgave him. Also it seems apparent that He loved David and took into account his life course towards God. But -- nevertheless -- there is no one, absolutely no one, that can keep the Law. And God knew that, which is why He authorized sacrifice for sin. (He did not, however, offer the opportunity for sacrifice to Adam and Eve.) I believe Jesus, however, did keep the Law. Perfectly. We can discuss sin and its consequences another time. There is so much to talk about. Or learn.

I know that various types of Christians have similar or vastly different ideas on the topic. Especially across the historical landscape.

The whole reading of hearts and forgiveness is not what shows up in the Hebrew Tanakh. What it describes is that a) David understood where he had gone wrong, b) he regretted his behavior, c) he corrected his behavior and never returned that type of trangression again, d) he admitted what he had done wrong, e) he accepted the particular consequence when it was clear he could not change it, and d) he got up and restarted his life keeping the Torah.

In terms of the Law you talking about, I am not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that the Jewish Christians of the 1st and 2nd cent. could not keep the Torah. Based on their dissappearance off the historical map I would agree with Paul that "they" could not keep their own laws; like the one inMatthew 5:29-30. If we mean the laws that Paul created, like his laws of marriage (“But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: it is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion” (I Corinthians 7:8, 9)) , I agree almost no one can keep the type of stuff that he came up with.

Yet, luckly for us Hashem stated that the Jewish nation, and even Noachides, can keep the Torah (613 for the Jewish nation and 7 for the non-Jewish nations) and that it is not far from us. And I quote:

דברים
ל,יא כי המצוה הזאת, אשר אנכי מצוך היום--לא-נפלאת הוא ממך, ולא רחקה הוא. ל,יב לא בשמים, הוא: לאמר, מי יעלה-לנו השמימה ויקחה לנו, וישמענו אתה, ונעשנה. ל,יג ולא-מעבר לים, הוא: לאמר, מי יעבר-לנו אל-עבר הים ויקחה לנו, וישמענו אתה, ונעשנה. ל,יד כי-קרוב אליך הדבר, מאד: בפיך ובלבבך, לעשתו​

Thus, Hashem stated that we don't need someone to go up into heaven to bring it down in order for us to keep it and we don't need someone go to far distant place for us to keep it. That is why you won't find one place in the Tanakh where "Hashem" states that Jews can't keep the Torah.

Let's just say that I iwill take Hashem at his word.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I think I must state, that even from a outside logical perspective it would be very sadistic for someone say something like.

"Here are these eternal rules of driving on roads and highway. They are possible for you to keep. They are good and stable and given for your benefit. Practice them and drive safetly. If you make a mistake you are required to improve your driving for the good of you and all drivers. If you don't keep them you will be putting yourself and others in danger. If you become too dangerous on the road then police will pull you over. Yet, if you stop driving dangerously and keep the rules of driving then I will let you again drive safely on the roads."

Then several years later.

"Oh remember those rules about driving I gave you? I wasn't being honest. You can't keep those rules. In contradiciton to what I told you earlier, I just gave those to you to show you how bad of a driver you would become if you had rules of driving. Now here are even harder rules for you to keep/but not so much keep. You won't become a better driver but you will feel awful guilty about how bad of a driver you are. Also, if you keep those rules of driving that I gave you earlier that I told you were for the good of you and all drivers; you are breaking the law for using those rules and I will punish you for doing what I told you do and beleiving me."

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm not sure what you think true Christian repentance is.

If you don't mind me asking. Can you list about 5 or 6 traits of what makes someone a "true Christian?" Can true Christians be found in all of the various ancient and modern Christian denominations such as Catholics, Protestants, Ebionites, Marcionites, Evangelicals. Syrian Orthodox Church of the East, the Ethiopian Church, Messianics, Sacred Namers, Hebrew Roots, etc. Are any of these groups as a whole not true Christians? If so, why not? Thanks.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I think it's about time for me to close up, I hope the weather and conditions are good where you're at now. We have had some beautiful weather in the area we're in, the leaves are turning beautiful colors now, although the west coast is being ravaged by fires, and the earth is being ruined by fuel companies, just to mention a few.

No problem. Yes, the weather here is good. We are in the midst of Sukkoth here so things are really good for the family. 7 Days of living in the Sukkah is a great experience here in the land of Israel.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Paul did NOT teach that it was a moral responsibility for Jews to be circumcised, observe the Shabbat, keep kosher, etc.

I don't think it was so. Paul was in dispute with Christian Jews but the question was about non-Jewish Christians.

"But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question." (Acts)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Speaking of which, what IS the "Torah message"?

If the People of Israel keep the 613 laws of the Torah, the Land of Canaan is ours to live on, we will be blessed with prosperity, and God will be our God. The Laws bring with them many blessings, as Psalm 19 points out:

ח תּוֹרַת יְהוָה תְּמִימָה, מְשִׁיבַת נָפֶשׁ; עֵדוּת יְהוָה נֶאֱמָנָה, מַחְכִּימַת פֶּתִי.8 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
ט פִּקּוּדֵי יְהוָה יְשָׁרִים, מְשַׂמְּחֵי-לֵב; מִצְוַת יְהוָה בָּרָה, מְאִירַת עֵינָיִם.9 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
י יִרְאַת יְהוָה, טְהוֹרָה--עוֹמֶדֶת לָעַד: מִשְׁפְּטֵי-יְהוָה אֱמֶת; צָדְקוּ יַחְדָּו.10 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, they are righteous altogether;
יא הַנֶּחֱמָדִים--מִזָּהָב, וּמִפַּז רָב; וּמְתוּקִים מִדְּבַשׁ, וְנֹפֶת צוּפִים.11 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
יב גַּם-עַבְדְּךָ, נִזְהָר בָּהֶם; בְּשָׁמְרָם, עֵקֶב רָב.12 Moreover by them is Thy servant warned; in keeping of them there is great reward.
יג שְׁגִיאוֹת מִי-יָבִין; מִנִּסְתָּרוֹת נַקֵּנִי.13 Who can discern his errors? Clear Thou me from hidden faults.
יד גַּם מִזֵּדִים, חֲשֹׂךְ עַבְדֶּךָ-- אַל-יִמְשְׁלוּ-בִי אָז אֵיתָם;
וְנִקֵּיתִי, מִפֶּשַׁע רָב.14 Keep back Thy servant also from presumptuous sins, that they may not have dominion over me; {N}
then shall I be faultless, and I shall be clear from great transgression.
טו יִהְיוּ לְרָצוֹן אִמְרֵי-פִי, וְהֶגְיוֹן לִבִּי לְפָנֶיךָ:
יְהוָה, צוּרִי וְגֹאֲלִי.15 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable before Thee, {N}
O LORD, my Rock, and my Redeemer. {P}

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Let me ask you one question now. That is, when did the Law change? For instance, it was part of the "Law" to not make incense like that prescribed for the priests by anyone else. It was punishable by...? What do you think? What was the punishment for those that made a formula for incense outside of those given the privilege by...God through Moses. So the question is, what was the punishment to be carried out and set by God and given to Moses for those breaking that rule about incense at Exodus 30?

The Law has never changed. It is the same now that it has always been. We are to keep all the laws that apply to us, provided that we can, and that it does not result in the loss of life.

The penalties for breaking the laws were different depending on which law. Many laws had no penalties at all.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If it's such a moral responsibility, what about the other laws and responsibilities. After all a person can be circumcized and yet commit adultery, kill others and steal, isn't that true?

All 613 laws are obligatory for Jews, those which apply to us, that we can keep, and which don't result in the loss of life.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't think it was so. Paul was in dispute with Christian Jews but the question was about non-Jewish Christians.

"But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question." (Acts)

Please give me the book, chapter, and verse, where Paul admonishes Jewish believers to get circumcised and keep the Law.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

May I ask if you are a Noahide? Perhaps you said and I didn't see that. One of the reasons I ask is because I wonder if Noahides feel it is a moral responsibility to be circumcised, observe the Sabbath keep kosher, etc. Would you know if they do?

I'm a Jew, and although I consider myself non-denominational, my observance is roughly that of conservatives. Theologically I am more liberal.

Noahides only have the seven laws, and circumcision is not one of them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Slipping up is not the same as deliberate sin. On the other hand, King David was condemned for his sin, but when he repented, realized his sin, God forgave him. Nathan told him that. But David deserved death except for his repentance and his love and worship of the true God.

I am making the distinction between occasionally sinning, and living a lifestyle of sin.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Please give me the book, chapter, and verse, where Paul admonishes Jewish believers to get circumcised and keep the Law.

Once again, the problem were Gentile believers, because some Jews demanded they should (also) keep the whole Law. Read Acts of the Apostles 15.

Paul didn't write anything to Jewish believers.

 

[YoursTrue]

I can answer the part of about Noachide do and don't do.

Noachides have 7 mitzvoth: 6 that stem from Adam and 1 from the time of Noach. All humans who come from Adam and and Noach are essentially morally obligated to keep the 7 mitzvoth. Essentially, you can say that all humans by default of being human are noachides, whether they accept it or not reject it or not. Similar to how most human societies have laws and require people to follow a certain code of conduct whether the citizens like it or not.

So, Avraham was a noachide who took on the mitzvah brith milah for him, his children, and his household because Hashem offered this additional mitzvah to Avraham as a type of bond between Hashem and Avraham's household. This was not a worldwide requirement. It specific to Avraham and the mission that Hashem had for him and his household in the world.

Noachides do not have the mitzvah to circumcise themselves, that was a mitzvah for Avraham and his descendants. I.e. Noachides have no moral obligation to do so. They can, if they want and they can even do so to be considered by Jews as a Geir Toshav, see link before for an explaination.

Further, the only mitzvoth that Noachides have about food are not consuming blood and not eating the limb taken from a live animal. Noachides have no mitzvah to keep the Shabbat (Sabbath) since this mitzvah was given as a sign between Hashem and the children of Israel.

Again, it is important to stress that all humans, by default, are considered to have the 7 mitzvoth as their moral compass; rather they accept that concept or not. Modern "Noachides" know what the mitzvoth are because they learn them from Jews, in some form or fashion.

The following discussons from a while back may help understand more about Noachides.

In Short - The Noachide/7 Mitvahs an explaination

Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law Code agreement (or covenant), but we do know that there can be proselytes or those that convert to Judaism once it was established, even now. So the point is (there are several but I'll stick to one right now), does it matter what "branch" of Judaism someone may convert to as far as you are concerned? That's the first question. (There are more...)

 

[YoursTrue]

I am making the distinction between occasionally sinning, and living a lifestyle of sin.

Well now the death penalty is not being executed for those within the fold(s) of Judaism, let's say, if they murder only one person in their lifetime. I mean like they only "occasionally" sin? Or if they only occasionally commit adultery, or if they turn away and worship idols. (How come the Mosaic Law is no longer being imposed?)