Paul's distortion of the Torah message

[Trailblazer]

I assume you've read his book of laws. Does he say what will happen to those who do not follow those laws?

No, He does not say what will happen to them except in certain cases where there are penalties to be imposed.

 

[Trailblazer]

So how would you say your beliefs differ from what the Jews believe?

They are different in lots of ways, but if you are referring to the laws, the penalties that are imposed are different. For example, in the Baha'i Faith, the penalty for homosexuality and adultery is not death as it is in the Torah.

 

[YoursTrue]

They are different in lots of ways, but if you are referring to the laws, the penalties that are imposed are different. For example, in the Baha'i Faith, the penalty for homosexuality and adultery is not death as it is in the Torah.

Ok so what is it?

 

[YoursTrue]

No, He does not say what will happen to them except in certain cases where there are penalties to be imposed.

Does it deal about what some call the "afterlife"?

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok so what is it?

There is no penalty for homosexuality. The worst that can happen is that a Baha'i could have their voting rights taken away, but only of they are flagrant about it, such as announcing they are a Baha'i in a public bar. What they do in the privacy of their own home is their own business, and it is between them and God.

19 Ye have been forbidden to commit murder or adultery, or to engage in backbiting or calumny; shun ye, then, what hath been prohibited in the holy Books and Tablets.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 26

36. or adultery # 19
The Arabic word “ziná”, here translated as “adultery”, signifies both fornication and adultery. It applies not only to sexual relations between a married person and someone who is not his or her spouse, but also to extramarital sexual intercourse in general. One form of “ziná” is rape. The only penalty prescribed by Bahá’u’lláh is for those who commit fornication (see note 77); penalties for other kinds of sexual offence are left to the Universal House of Justice to determine.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 181

77. God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice # 49

Although the term translated here as adultery refers, in its broadest sense, to unlawful sexual intercourse between either married or unmarried individuals (see note 36 for a definition of the term), ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has specified that the punishment here prescribed is for sexual intercourse between persons who are unmarried. He indicates that it remains for the Universal House of Justice to determine the penalty for adultery committed by a married individual. (See also Q and A 49.)

In one of His Tablets, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá refers to some of the spiritual and social implications of the violation of the laws of morality and, concerning the penalty here described, He indicates that the aim of this law is to make clear to all that such an action is shameful in the eyes of God and that, in the event that the offence can be established and the fine imposed, the principal purpose is the exposure of the offenders—that they are shamed and disgraced in the eyes of society. He affirms that such exposure is in itself the greatest punishment.

The House of Justice referred to in this verse is presumably the Local House of Justice, currently known as the Local Spiritual Assembly.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 200

 

[Trailblazer]

Does it deal about what some call the "afterlife"?

Do you mean are they punished in the afterlife or are you asking if Baha'is believe in an afterlife?

I cannot say how God will punish people in the afterlife because I don't know. However, Baha'u'llah did indicate that people will be judged by God and repaid for their doings in the afterlife, so we agree with Christians about a Judgment Day:

“Know ye that the world and its vanities and its embellishments shall pass away. Nothing will endure except God’s Kingdom which pertaineth to none but Him, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. The days of your life shall roll away, and all the things with which ye are occupied and of which ye boast yourselves shall perish, and ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back. To this the Tongue of Him that speaketh the truth and is the Knower of all things hath testified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 125

Much has been revealed by Baha'u'llah about the soul in the afterlife, but one thing that has been revealed is the following, which indicates that everyone will have to come face to face with whatever deeds they committed in this life, aside from any judgment by God:

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-171

 

[YoursTrue]

Do you mean are they punished in the afterlife or are you asking if Baha'is believe in an afterlife?

I cannot say how God will punish people in the afterlife because I don't know. However, Baha'u'llah did indicate that people will be judged by God and repaid for their doings in the afterlife, so we agree with Christians about a Judgment Day:

“Know ye that the world and its vanities and its embellishments shall pass away. Nothing will endure except God’s Kingdom which pertaineth to none but Him, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. The days of your life shall roll away, and all the things with which ye are occupied and of which ye boast yourselves shall perish, and ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back. To this the Tongue of Him that speaketh the truth and is the Knower of all things hath testified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 125

Much has been revealed by Baha'u'llah about the soul in the afterlife, but one thing that has been revealed is the following, which indicates that everyone will have to come face to face with whatever deeds they committed in this life, aside from any judgment by God:

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-171

First of all, if you believe in an afterlife, that means...after ... life. See, what usually happens after life is something called death.

 

[Trailblazer]

First of all, if you believe in an afterlife, that means...after ... life. See, what usually happens after life is something called death.

Death of the body, but not death of the spirit (soul). I believe that the death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another and when the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements. I believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body that is immortal.

Below is an apt description of what I believe happens when the physical body dies.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Death of the body, but not death of the spirit (soul). I believe that the death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another and when the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements. I believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body that is immortal.

Below is an apt description of what I believe happens when the physical body dies.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I'll get more into this (Eccl 12:7) later perhaps and the use of the word spirit, but after "life" is not life. After 'life' means -- after life. See, life is life, and death is death. Death is not life.

 

[YoursTrue]

Death of the body, but not death of the spirit (soul). I believe that the death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another and when the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements. I believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body that is immortal.

Below is an apt description of what I believe happens when the physical body dies.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalm 146:4 explains that when a person or animal dies, his thoughts cease. Thus the word spirit means that the ability to live, in a manner of speaking, goes back to the One who gave it. If you look more at the scriptures, you will see that the word spirit is strongly associated with breath.
"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish."
"his thoughts perish." Thus -- you figure it out. His thoughts perish. His spirit departs. In that very day his thoughts perish. No more.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll get more into this (Eccl 12:7) later perhaps and the use of the word spirit, but after "life" is not life. After 'life' means -- after life. See, life is life, and death is death. Death is not life.

Afterlife is an oxymoron because it is all one life... We live a life in this world and then our life continues when our soul passes to the the spiritual world.

Death of the body is just death of the body, it is not death since the body is not who we are. The body is nothing but an outer shell which houses the soul while we are live on earth. After we die physically we shed the body and the soul continues its journey in the spiritual world.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Psalm 146:4 explains that when a person or animal dies, his thoughts cease. Thus the word spirit means that the ability to live, in a manner of speaking, goes back to the One who gave it. If you look more at the scriptures, you will see that the word spirit is strongly associated with breath.
"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish."
"his thoughts perish." Thus -- you figure it out. His thoughts perish. His spirit departs. In that very day his thoughts perish. No more.

The body returns to the earth and the thoughts associated with the brain cease, but the soul then passes to the spiritual world. Since the soul is what is responsible foe consciousness, we continue to have consciousness and think.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

May I ask what about the priests in the reform and conservative movements, or other factions, how would you know who is a priest.

Sir, they know who they are. It doesn't matter what branch of Judaism they are in. Their status as priests in 100% inherited as the patrilineal descendants of Aaron. They usually have last names such as Kohn, Cohen, etc.

 

[YoursTrue]

Sir, they know who they are. It doesn't matter what branch of Judaism they are in. Their status as priests in 100% inherited as the patrilineal descendants of Aaron. They usually have last names such as Kohn, Cohen, etc.

OK, I don't believe that any real records have been kept since the destruction of the temple, but thanks for the answer. The history is interesting to say the least. My father-in-law was said to be of the priestly tribe, his last name was nothing near Kohen. He also rarely went to synagogue.
By the way, I did a little research and see that reform Jews do not believe in the divisions like Conservative and Orthodox do. I intend to do a little more research about that. Which makes sense in a way since the sacrifices and Levitical priesthood is not needed, the Temple has been destroyed.

 

[YoursTrue]

The body returns to the earth and the thoughts associated with the brain cease, but the soul then passes to the spiritual world. Since the soul is what is responsible foe consciousness, we continue to have consciousness and think.

I don't believe that. The Bible says that when we're dead "we" (that is, you and I and everyone else who has lived) go back to the ground. The SPIRIT is the ability to live that God allows each living thing to have. And which, in a sense, goes back to Him. To say that it keeps living as if it has consciousness is simply not true, it doesn't matter who says it. Because God certainly does not say that in the inspired document. It doesn't make sense. But if that's what your teacher or leader says, and you believe it,f all I can say is, have a nice day. Thank you for the conversation.

 

[YoursTrue]

Death of the body, but not death of the spirit (soul). I believe that the death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another and when the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements. I believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body that is immortal.

Below is an apt description of what I believe happens when the physical body dies.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Some people are alive but are what they call brain dead. This poses a problem. #421 is wrong. It almost reminds me of the magic-practicing priests in Pharaoh's court vs the truth of what the true God was saying through Moses to Pharaoh. But then there are people who believe different things in many walks of life. And then there ARE spirits but not of the dead that can communicate with those that are willing and prone to believe them.

 

[YoursTrue]

Do you mean are they punished in the afterlife or are you asking if Baha'is believe in an afterlife?

I cannot say how God will punish people in the afterlife because I don't know. However, Baha'u'llah did indicate that people will be judged by God and repaid for their doings in the afterlife, so we agree with Christians about a Judgment Day:

“Know ye that the world and its vanities and its embellishments shall pass away. Nothing will endure except God’s Kingdom which pertaineth to none but Him, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. The days of your life shall roll away, and all the things with which ye are occupied and of which ye boast yourselves shall perish, and ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back. To this the Tongue of Him that speaketh the truth and is the Knower of all things hath testified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 125

Much has been revealed by Baha'u'llah about the soul in the afterlife, but one thing that has been revealed is the following, which indicates that everyone will have to come face to face with whatever deeds they committed in this life, aside from any judgment by God:

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-171

A judgment day for most will be while they're alive. Not when they're dead. Life is life and death is not.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe that. The Bible says that when we're dead "we" (that is, you and I and everyone else who has lived) go back to the ground. The SPIRIT is the ability to live that God allows each living thing to have. And which, in a sense, goes back to Him. To say that it keeps living as if it has consciousness is simply not true, it doesn't matter who says it. Because God certainly does not say that in the inspired document. It doesn't make sense. But if that's what your teacher or leader says, and you believe it,f all I can say is, have a nice day. Thank you for the conversation.

I am not going to argue with you or try to convince you of anything because obviously you have your mind made up. I believe that the soul is a sign of God that is a mystery and that it lives on and has full consciousness in the spiritual world, where it continues to live and grow spiritually, just as it did in this world. The soul works through a physical body in this world whereas it takes son a spiritual body in the next world.

If humans did not have an immortal soul that continues to live, our life in this world would be pointless.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

Moreover, I do not believe the Bible is the only or the final Word of God and it is anything but clear as to what happens to us after we die, and that is why Christians are all over the board regarding the afterlife.

 

[Trailblazer]

A judgment day for most will be while they're alive. Not when they're dead. Life is life and death is not.

And then after that judgment day in this life, what do you think happens?