Paul Saved on the road?

[Nova2216]

But the Lord gave the keys to the kingdom to the apostles. He entrusted the administration of his church to them.


Correct. Apostles have been passing on authority by laying on of hands for centuries.

There are apostles. Always have been. Today’s clergy are the successors to Apostolic authority. The reason why bishops wear mitres is because the mitre symbolizes the flame that stood on the Apostles’ heads at Pentecost. That you don’t recognize that is to your detriment in this argument.

Allow me to point out the qualifications of an apostle.

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. (Acts 1:22)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3 That which we have seen and heard (1Jn 1:1-3)



No one in 1000s of years have seen, heard or touched Jesus therefore they cannot be an apostle regardless of what they call themselves.


Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

The HS doesn’t magically produce memory work. And that’s not how prophecy works, either. Additionally, you don’t have either the authority or the perspective to test the presence of the Holy Spirit in anyone but yourself. This post is meaningless. it doesn’t present a valid argument or a valid rebuttal. You seem to live in this fantasy world of your own invention where exegesis and theology are concerned.

Thank You

 

[sojourner]

Allow me to point out the qualifications of an apostle

I don’t think you’re aware of the qualifications. No matter what you believe.

No one in 1000s of years have seen, heard or touched Jesus therefore they cannot be an apostle regardless of what they call themselves.

Sure about that? How do you know?

 

[Nova2216]

I don’t think you’re aware of the qualifications. No matter what you believe.


Sure about that? How do yo know?

The Lord gave men all things pertaining to life and godliness according to (2Peter1:3).

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Jn 14:26)



I know what ALL means.

 

[Nova2216]

Interesting, I believe it is for all disciples of Jesus.

You claim the Holy Spirit baptism is for all people.

The Lord said it was a "promise" to the apostles.

You do realize the baptism of the Holy Spirit was a miracle don't you? (Ac. 2) (Ac. 10)

That is the only two times it is recorded in the NT.

Joel's reference to "all flesh" in (Acts 2:16,17) was pointing to the Jews in (Ac.2) and the Gentiles in (Ac.10).

"All Flesh" does not mean each and every believer.

 

[1213]

You claim the Holy Spirit baptism is for all people....

Yes, I believe it is promised for all, because:

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?
Luke 11:13

But, obviously not all want the spirit of truth in them, because they love more lies than truth.

However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.
John 16:13

 

[1213]

Does the bible teach it is for all people?

Isn't that what matters?

Yes, I think so.

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?
Luke 11:13

 

[Nova2216]

Yes, I believe it is promised for all, because:

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?
Luke 11:13

But, obviously not all want the spirit of truth in them, because they love more lies than truth.

However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.
John 16:13

When is the Holy Spirit given to a person?

Hearing truth
Belief of truth
confession Jesus is the Son of God
repentance of sins
baptism in water for the remission of sins

 

[Nova2216]

Yes, I think so.

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?
Luke 11:13

If you want o PM me or start another thread I am willing to discuss this further.

This thread is about Paul being saved.



Thanks

 

[sojourner]

The Lord gave men all things pertaining to life and godliness according to (2Peter1:3).

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Jn 14:26)



I know what ALL means.

But this isn’t some magical osmosis. Not everyone is in a place to be aware of what is being offered to them. This is a two-way Street, because it IS all about relationship. Spirit offers/we still have to do the work to receive. I perceive that you’re unaware of the nature and manifestation of Apostolic succession. Otherwise you wouldn’t have posted what you posted.

 

[sojourner]

The Lord said it was a "promise" to the apostles

The Lord said, “I WILL SEND...” That sounds more like a confirmation of a process already in motion.

You do realize the baptism of the Holy Spirit was a miracle don't you?

Depends on what you mean by “miracle.” I think it’s a natural process of human spirituality.

"All Flesh" does not mean each and every believer.

“All flesh” means all flesh. As you said before in another post: all means all.

When is the Holy Spirit given to a person?

Hearing truth
Belief of truth
confession Jesus is the Son of God
repentance of sins
baptism in water for the remission of sins

Nope. Jesus said that the Spirit moves as it will. Our job is to be ready to perceive. This isn’t a formulaic proposition in which certain boxes must be checked, or else Jesus’ statement is false.

 

[e.r.m.]

I think you’re conflating the symbolic with the concrete.

No Sir, I am not.

Baptism has always been a symbolic act.

'Always' would necessitate someone in the Bible saying this is a symbolic Act. No one said that. It began to be believed erroneously as a symbolic act either during the Reformation or the pre-reformation. Try finding documentation describing baptism as a symbolic act before this time.

To bring it into the concrete and say that “it’s the water” or even “it’s the act” that saves is, IMO, ludicrous.

Therein lies the flaw in your logic. What is said it that it is God who saves, when he sees the expected response that He put forth, when a person believes and is baptized. (I say that as an abbreviation because we're discussing baptism. Scripture also expressed the expectations of repentance Acts 3:19 and confessing with one's mouth Jesus as Lord Romans 10:9-10).

Baptism is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace.

This bumber sticker catch phrase is a lie (I'm not saying you're the liar, probably just an unwitting participant in its propagation). It unavoidably cannot be found or defended in the text of scripture, and deserves all the condemnation and disrepute that can be brought to bear upon it.

 

[sojourner]

'Always' would necessitate someone in the Bible saying this is a symbolic Act

Here’s what Matthew says: 11 “I baptize you with water for repentance...” and “13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, ‘I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?’”
The word “baptize” is a common term — not a specialized, theological term. It meant “washing up.” With water. If everyone participates in “washing up with water,” and neither the act nor the water cleanse them of sin, then neither the act nor the water can be literally efficacious. The act and the medium are symbolic of something God is doing spiritually. Furthermore, Jesus came to John for “washing up with water.” I imagine that Jesus was without sin, and John protested, because he knew that. Therefore, the act must have been symbolic and not literal, for Jesus was not spiritually “dirty.” Symbolic. Says so right there.

Try finding documentation describing baptism as a symbolic act before this time

See above, corroborated by Mark 1 and Lk 3.

What is said it that it is God who saves, when he sees the expected response that He put forth, when a person believes and is baptized

In other words, it’s not the act, itself, nor is it the medium of water that literally do the job. They are symbolic of something God is doing.

Scripture also expressed the expectations of repentance Acts 3:19 and confessing with one's mouth Jesus as Lord

This isn’t cogent to the argument.

This bumber sticker catch phrase is a lie (I'm not saying you're the liar, probably just an unwitting participant in its propagation

From the Book of Common Prayer, pg. 857-858: “The sacraments are outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace (emphasis mine).” And: “The two great sacraments given by Christ to his Church are Holy Baptism...” And: “The outward and visible sign in Baptism is water... The inward and spiritual grace in Baptism is union with Christ in his death and resurrection...” It’s there in black and white: the Apostles’ teaching as handed down through the Anglican tradition. It’s not a lie; it’s legit. Since I am a member of the clergy, nothing — let me repeat and emphasize: nothing in which I participate spiritually is “unwitting.”

It unavoidably cannot be found or defended in the text of scripture

It can and it has. I don’t think you’ve been paying attention, and so you’ve conflated the literal with the symbolic. Your own words betray you on this, for you said: “What is said it that it is God who saves.” The water and the act are symbols (as I said) of God’s action.

 

[Nova2216]

Is Baptism a Symbol?

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

(This is only a small part of the lesson)

The design of water baptism in the New Testament is unquestionably to allow for the sinner’s sins to be removed by the blood of Jesus. This purpose is variously described as “to be saved” (Mark 16:16), “for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38), to “put on Christ” (Galatians 3:27), to “enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5), to “wash away your sins” (Acts 22:16), to place one “into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13) and “into Christ” (Romans 6:3). These are parallel expressions that pinpoint the same design.

In an effort to avoid the clear import of such verses, some theologians have concocted the notion that water baptism is a post-salvation action that follows the forgiveness of sins. Christendom, almost in its entirety, insists that remission of sin is imparted to the sinner at the very moment the sinner “believes” (i.e., accepts Jesus as personal Savior). This reception of Christ is an internal, mostly intellectual/mental decision in which the individual makes a genuine commitment to receive Jesus as Lord.

In his book How To Be Born Again, Billy Graham articulated the viewpoint espoused by the bulk of Christendom: “All you have to do to be born again is to repent of your sins and believe in the Lord Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior” (1977, p. 156). He stated further: “Faith is trust, an act of commitment, in which I open the door of my heart to Him” (p. 160); “It means a single, individual relinquishment of mind and heart toward the one person, Jesus Christ” (p. 161); “Conversion occurs when we repent and place our faith in Christ” (p. 162). Near the close of his book, Graham summarized the prevailing view of when forgiveness occurs:

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

Is Baptism a Symbol?

 

[Nova2216]

The Bible is its Own Best Interpreter

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

(This is a small part of the lesson)

But doesn’t the Bible teach that baptism is, in fact, a symbol? Doesn’t baptism have “symbolic” significance? Yes, the Bible assigns symbolic significance to baptism in regard to at least three distinct features. Paul said that water baptism symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. He used the terms “likeness” and “form” to pinpoint this symbolism (Romans 6:5,17). He later identified a symbolic link between baptism and Old Testament circumcision—the idea that as skin was cut off by circumcision, so sins are cut off at baptism (Colossians 2:11-12). Peter added a third instance of baptism’s symbolic value. He compared a person passing through the water of baptism in order to be saved (by Christ’s resurrection) with the eight persons who were saved “by,” i.e., through (dia) the water of the Flood of Noah’s day (1 Peter 3:20-21). Notice carefully how the Bible is its own best interpreter: baptism symbolizes: (1) Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection; (2) the “cutting off” of circumcision; and (3) the waters of the Flood. How in the world could anyone get out of this that baptism symbolizes past forgiveness that was achieved prior to being baptized?


The Bible is its Own Best Interpreter

 

[1213]

When is the Holy Spirit given to a person?
...

I believe it will be given, when a disciple of Jesus asks it.

 

[e.r.m.]

The Bible is its Own Best Interpreter

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

(This is a small part of the lesson)

But doesn’t the Bible teach that baptism is, in fact, a symbol? Doesn’t baptism have “symbolic” significance? Yes, the Bible assigns symbolic significance to baptism in regard to at least three distinct features. Paul said that water baptism symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. He used the terms “likeness” and “form” to pinpoint this symbolism (Romans 6:5,17). He later identified a symbolic link between baptism and Old Testament circumcision—the idea that as skin was cut off by circumcision, so sins are cut off at baptism (Colossians 2:11-12). Peter added a third instance of baptism’s symbolic value. He compared a person passing through the water of baptism in order to be saved (by Christ’s resurrection) with the eight persons who were saved “by,” i.e., through (dia) the water of the Flood of Noah’s day (1 Peter 3:20-21). Notice carefully how the Bible is its own best interpreter: baptism symbolizes: (1) Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection; (2) the “cutting off” of circumcision; and (3) the waters of the Flood. How in the world could anyone get out of this that baptism symbolizes past forgiveness that was achieved prior to being baptized?


The Bible is its Own Best Interpreter

The Bible never says symbolism is the purpose to get baptized in Jesus's name.

 

[DKH]

Did Paul come to baptism thinking his sins had "already" been forgiven or did he think he needed to be baptized to be forgiven of his sins?

It is my position that Paul didn't think his sins were already forgiven, nor did he think that water baptism had anything to do with the forgiveness of sins. He also knew that receiving the nature of God (spirit) only occurred after his death and the resurrection of the firstfruits. Therefore, the forgiveness of one's sins can only occur after they die. Thus, each individual pays the required penalty for their own sins by dying…Paul, (in Romans 6:23) claims that the wages of sin is death. So, if our sins were forgiven before we die (being carnal and alive) would mean the penalty of death is eliminated! But, we know this is not the case or true. Where, the Christ was the only one who died without having sinned. We also know that the bible does not claim that Paul was baptized in water…


In 1 John 1:9 it is stated: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is a true statement, but the forgiveness and cleansing doesn't become complete until one's death and the resurrections. Paul, faced this dilemma and made it clear in Romans 7:13-25…Yet, in Romans 8 it seems to contradict this claim, but it really doesn't. Because, being in the flesh we can't please God. Yet, the Christ states that he will send the "helper" from God to strengthen us during our time of trial. This occurrence is somewhat similar to the O.T. practice of the Day of Atonement, where the Israelites were made "right" with God by observing this Holy Day and other rituals. However, theirs sins were not actually forgiven.


Paul makes another bold claim in Romans 7:18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing.

 

[sojourner]

The Bible is its Own Best Interpreter

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

And this right here is the best and most persuasive reason to take anything this man says with the smallest grain of salt.

 

[Nova2216]

I believe it will be given, when a disciple of Jesus asks it.

(Acts 8:18) - 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

The word of God leaves no doubt about how the Holy Spirit was passed on to others. It's not wise to change or depart from the word of God. (1Peter 4:11) (1Cor. 4:6) (Deut. 4:2)



Thanks