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Featured Paul Saved on the road?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Nova2216, May 13, 2020.

  1. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    For one to have part with God one must have his sins forgiven.

    Why?

    B/c sin separates men from God (Isa.59:1,2) (Rom.3:23 ; 6:23).

    2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.


    The Lord could not tell Paul how to be saved b/c of what (2Cor.4:7) teaches.

    7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, ...

    This Treasure = The Gospel

    Earthen Vessels = Men

    God has ordained that men teach men how to be saved (Mark 16:15,16) (2Tim.2:2).

    So in (Acts 9) Jesus tells Saul (Paul) where to go but not how to be saved.

    In (Acts 9:9) we see that 3 days later Paul meets up with Ananias in (Acts 22:16).

    Here is what Ananias tells Paul.

    #1. arise
    #2. and be baptized
    #3. and wash away thy sins


    Did Paul come to baptism thinking his sins had "already" been forgiven or did he think he needed to be baptized to be forgiven of his sins?



    Thanks
     
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  2. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The baptism part would have been a serious commitment and helped crystalize faith decisions he already made.

    I would say in a view of 'perseverance of the saints' there is no contradiction. Those who are saved will persevere until the end and will have fruit of faith working in love seen in various ways one of which could be baptism

    There were people like the thef at the cross who was never baptized and Cornelius had the holy SPirity before baptism.
     
  3. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    The Bible said as a scientific Law of Holy bodies...to never add, or change the names of God written in the Book, laws of the beginning/end of science practice.

    God after all is natural history, natural history historically only owns evolution by cooling.

    Science however is not that practice, to allow for evolution to continue to cool...so they do not follow any laws of God.

    New names of God.....nuclear resourcing and all the evaluated symbolism, letters and numbered factors.

    To the Higgs Boson......whose name is not God is it.

    If you asked science self why you placed "son" in the title....or B soon.

    B-Value: Definition & Explanation - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com

    [​IMG]

    Value of the Earth God inference, the CLOAK or mantle of God, is AB BA.

    Which states the holding of the B value is a double or x 2.

    So if you take the ground fall radiation signal to want it for a machine alteration of God the stone, which is not the heavenly son value....then the information says you change the nature of God on Earth and its heavenly values.

    Why you were taught to never alter the SON names. Which is the constant questioning and modern day occult science research about asking questions in forums to gain science answers about God science history.

    Jesus life sacrifice owned a human law that forbade any more nuclear science practices as science. It was forbidden.

    How come no scientist is challenged today about those statements?
     
  4. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    Thanks for posting.

    #1. Can you prove the thief was not baptized?

    He sure knew a lot about Jesus, His kingdom, His innocence, Him living after death, etc.

    41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (Luke 23:42)


    I cannot prove he was baptized but all of Judea was baptized of John (Mark 1:5).

    5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.


    My main point would be the thief was never commanded to be baptized under the NT Law.

    He lived and died under the OT Law.


    Noah was saved without being baptized (Gen. 6:8,22).

    Let's notice how Noah was saved by grace.

    8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.



    Let us look at how the Ephesians were saved by grace (Eph. 2:1-10).

    Let us go to (Acts 19:1-6) and there we will see the Ephesians were in fact baptized (in water) twice.


    Why? - "Baptism doth also now Save us"

    (Mark 16:15,16) (1Peter 3:21) (Acts 2:36-47) (Acts 22:16)



    #2. The thief lived and died under the OT Law.

    The command to be immersed (in water) for the remission of sins was not in affect until the NT Law was established.

    That NT Law began in (Acts 2).



    One cannot be baptized into the "death" of Christ until He (Christ) first has died. (Rom. 6:3,4).

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Heb. 9:15-17)



    Cornelius is a very interesting study. I am sure we will get to that at some point.

    Just b/c the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius does not mean he was saved at that point.

    Others had the Holy Spirit and they were not saved.


    Thanks Again.
     
    #4 Nova2216, May 14, 2020
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  5. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I think it is interesting, if people think that it is the baptism that is required to have sins forgiven. Jesus taught baptism is for to make person a disciple of Jesus (“Christian”).

    Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
    Mat. 28:19-20
     
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  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I do not believe one instance of salvation covers all instances of salvation.
     
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  7. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    Do you care to answer the question?

    ...Did Paul come to baptism thinking his sins had "already" been forgiven or did he think he needed to be baptized to be forgiven of his sins?
     
  8. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    Would that include belief alone?
     
  9. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    That's "by grace alone, through faith alone" lingo. That's not in the Bible.

    The command to be baptized in Jesus name for the forgiveness of sins did not start until long after the thief was dead Acts 2:38-39. Why would you use the thief as an example?

    Cornelius and Company had the outpouring of the spirit upon them baptism in water, since that is what it actually says, not the indwelling which comes with baptism.
     
    #9 e.r.m., May 26, 2020
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  10. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    It wouldn't matter if He had been baptized by John. Baptism in Jesus name didn't start until after the thief was dead Acts 2:38-39. Acts 19:1-5 these who had been baptized by John were baptized in Jesus's name. Jesus saved the thief face to face, before baptism in His name was commanded.
     
  11. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    If he listened to Ananaias, it would be the latter.
     
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  12. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    How would that be mutually exclusive? Matthew 28:19-20 is a parallel verse to Mark 16:16, it was also for being saved.
     
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  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I found some assumptions:
    You suggest this is so, yet we have examples otherwise. Sampson would be one of them. You could argue that Sampson was fictional, but God had dealings with him. When were his sins forgiven? How about Moses? Moses had an anger problem and so was not permitted into the land, yet the LORD had dealings with Moses. He sin wasn't forgiven. Instead he simply was not permitted into the land, but the LORD still had dealings with him, anyway. What about Eli and his sons? They had dealings with the LORD for a long long time as priests, until finally they were killed; but in the meantime they served as priests. What about that lying prophet who lied and got that other prophet killed? What about Judas? What about Peter and his denial? When was he forgiven and when did God stop dealing with him?

    Maybe God can have dealings with whomsoever regardless of whether they are sinners? It certainly appears to be the case.

    Maybe its not the gospel. Context suggests that its the "light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ" shining from our hearts. Its a mouthful, and its not the word gospel. The gospel is a message, but the context of the verse suggests what is shining out of the heart is more than a mere message.

    Mark 16 is a commission to reach the Jews with the good news, and Mark 16:20 says that was accomplished. Its not a commission to reach the gentiles. 2 Tim 2:2 by no means says that God cannot deal with sinners nor that we need to be under Timothy in order to connect with God. Also despite his request to Timothy to keep his teachings Paul states (In Acts 20:20) that people must fall away and shall. What about them? What about us? We've got no Timotheus. You suggest God can't deal with us? I don't think you've got this nailed down.

    Consider that people are able to forgive one another. Why do you suppose that is? Do you think that if I am able to forgive you that God isn't? Will God's mercy be outdone by mine?

    So was Paul saved on the road? He was always trying to do the right thing. I can't even bring myself to be angry with him about it. Why would God be?
     
  14. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    Ever read (2Peter 2:20-22) (Luke 15) (Heb 10:26-31)?

    they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,..

    These scriptures teach a saved person can be lost eternally.


    Can you prove the thief was never baptized?

    All of Judea was baptized of John.

    The thief knew alot about Jesus according to (Luke 23:41).

    41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.


    Thanks
     
  15. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Mark 16:16 doesn’t say, if one is not baptized, he can’t be saved, but it says, “he who disbelieves will be condemned”. And even in that case, it is not the disbelief that is the reason for judgment. the reason is the sin that remains, if person doesn’t receive the forgiveness by believing what Jesus says.

    He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
    John 3:18-21
     
  16. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. But where does that idea come from, when Jesus didn’t teach so?
     
  17. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    Those in OT times were covered by the grace of God b/c of their willingness to obey the Lord in all He commanded.

    Noah was saved by grace b/c he done all the Lord commanded (Gen. 6:8,22).

    Sin separates one from God according to (Isa. 59:1,2) (Rom.3:23 ; 6:23).

    The Lord does not overlook continual sin (Heb.10:26-31) (1Jn 1:6-9). Note also (Luke 15) (2Peter 2:20-22) (Acts 8:12-22).

    The erring one must be guided back to truth according to (Gal. 6:1,2).

    What if the erring refuses to repent and pray for forgiveness? (Luke 13:3)



    Simon was a Christian just as the Samaritans (Acts 8:5,12).
    Then he sinned and was told in (Acts 8:12-22) how to get his heart right with God?

    He obeyed the word of God.

    How many sins did Simon commit in (Acts 8)?

    This will answer your question.



    When it comes to (2Cor. 4:7) and the words "this treasure" notice what (4:5) says.

    We preach Jesus (2Cor. 4:5).

    Philip preached the gospel in (Acts 8:5,12).

    Let's see what he taught.

    (Ac. 8:5) - Philip preached Christ
    (Ac. 8:12) - He taught the things concerning the kingdom of god and the name of Jesus Christ.

    I am pretty sure that is the gospel message.



    When it comes to Paul it is clear he was not forgiven of his sins until three days later in Damascus (not on the road with Jesus). (Ac. 9:9) (Ac. 22:16)


    Thanks
     
  18. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    Jesus said -

    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...(Mk 16:16)

    ...baptism doth also now save us... (1Peter 3:21)


    TRUE or FALSE
     
  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I think that you are still skipping Sampson.

    Ok Noah. Noah...could be a very perfect person, but it only notes one distinction that sets him apart. The Earth is filled with violence, but Noah isn't violent. Noah is not violent, but he has problems. You can see those problems in his family and in his drunkenness. Everybody else is a flood of violence, but Noah is an ark of peace. Therefore he is selected to save the human race and to build a wooden ark; but this obedience to build the ark is just rational fear of a flood. His family is threatened with a huge flood. I'd do anything to save my family from a flood, wouldn't you, and what so especially unusual or good about that? I think he's nonviolent and this is credited to him as righteousness despite being a somewhat flawed person.

    If you look at what Isaiah is speaking about he's saying that nobody is caring for the poor. They are deceiving in order to gain wealth. No one is sticking up for the poor -- no justice is available. At the end of the chapter the LORD vows to take vengeance by --- reminding everyone and restoring what has been lost. What a strange thing to be called a vendetta. Sounds more like forgiveness to me and eventual restoration. Did the sin really separate them? It sounds more like it temporarily did.

    Looking up...Romans 3:23..I see your point. Looking above it at Romans 3:21 "But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify." In Romans 7 Paul says that the law brings out the sin within people and argues that we are to divorce from this law, in effect claiming that the law itself must provide us with a get. If he is correct (and I put the responsibility on him not me), then sin can no longer separate anyone from God. That doesn't mean it can't hurt us or that it is good. It does seem to counter some of your point that sin separates us from God. Maybe sin separated us from God in the past somewhat, however Romans is not supporting your answer. It is undermining your point.

    ****************
    Our discussion aside and as an extra tangent: the term used by Isaiah is 'Iniquity'. There may be a difference between this and just saying 'Sin'. Iniquity is not good, but all sins are not iniquities necessarily. Actually some users here could probably be more specific and certain about it, as I only speak English. I tend to think of iniquity as a social depravity of the kind which eventually destroys nations, rotting them from the inside out. Its associated with the fate of large groups of people. In Genesis its says that Moab is eventually destroyed when its iniquity becomes full.
    ****************
    I am not going to try to say that its Ok to be evil. Its not. I am going to point out that there are multiple verses in the scripture, some of which I will give references for, which talk about how you and I have power to forgive sins. So, yes, it really does help if someone learns how to be good, but I am suggesting that you can forgive them anyway when they are weak. You can be a ladder to heaven. I'm suggesting you can become an intermediary, like Jesus is the intermediary for you. I can overlook offenses against me. I can completely forgive those who wrong me. I can provide some forgiveness for others, too. Its a superpower -- my opinion of what the scriptures imply about our powers of forgiveness. I'm not saying that I can give people permission to sin (indulgences). I'm not suggesting that they have no responsibility.

    For consideration verses about our ability to forgive: James 5:15, Matthew 9:8, Matthew 16:19, John 20:23
    Arguably in John, Jesus is speaking to Jews, yet it supports the idea that forgiveness has been placed into the grasp of people. This principle of forgiveness need not be limited to Jews only although scriptures about it mostly seem to be directed towards Jews.

    For consideration Luke 2:14 says that all people on Earth already have God's favor. Its part of the declaration by angels when Jesus is born.

    For consideration Romans 2:4 it is God's kindness which leads us towards repentance at all. Without this nobody would repent. Kindness (not punishment and separation) leads us to repent.

    Most people are ignorant, and most need kindness given to them in order to repent. That is how repentance works. I return to the knowledge that in this gospel Jesus is speaking to fellow Jews, not to directly to gentiles such as myself. I'm merely a wink in this story. I only exist in theory once Jesus completes his obedience. I am one of the cooking pots and horse bells in Zechariah 14:20. I'm not the golden lampstand or very close to the altar, yet 'Holy to the LORD' gets inscribed onto me. It is because of Jesus atonement and the new temple, giant, invisible temple in which I am a stone. I still should learn from what Jesus says there in Luke, but there are few gentiles in that story if any. The people in that story, yes, are charged never to err. You and I must try not to err, but its not the end of the world if we do. Our main objective is to forgive and be forgiven. Peacemakers who plant peace raise a harvest of righteousness. (James 3:18)

    I think that the light should shine out from us, not through our mouths but through our lives. This is where a lot of people go wrong, because the mouth is full of poison and mixed loyalties. It strokes you then stabs you. You cannot shine through your mouth. Tragically we are in an internet forum. I see the irony there. I don't think that just anybody can preach. I think that a person must really be excellent to successfully preach, and I don't think that preaching is merely speaking. Back when the gospel first went out it was Jews speaking to Jews. Then later it was through cleaned up, spiritually fruitful gentiles who were not merely saying words but were sharing themselves.
     
    #19 Brickjectivity, May 26, 2020
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  20. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    You have brought up a very good point.

    Men forgiving other men.


    Notice what (Eph. 4:32) says.

    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


    Our instructions are to forgive as the Lord forgave.

    So let's look at how the Lord forgave people in (Acts 2:36-47). They were Jews and believers in God. They needed the NT instructions on how to be cleansed of sins.

    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38)

    Most religious people today do not refer to (Eph.4:32) for their guidance as to how we forgive others. They just say to forgive regardless if the person repents or not.

    That is not what the Lord taught.

    Repentance is always required before the Lord will forgive sin. (Luke 13:3).

    He requires us to do the same. (Eph. 4:32)

    Notice Simon in (Acts 8:12-24).

    21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

    Notice (1Jn 1:6-9) - 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


    Now back to (Eph. 4:32). (forgive as the Lord forgave you)

    Each and every conversion in the NT was forgiven in the very same manner for God is no respector of persons. (Rom. 2:11)

    How did the Lord forgive those in (Acts 2:38).

    Repentance and baptism (in water) was required.

    This is to become a Christian.

    Once one is a Christian and is caught up in sin he must follow (1Jn 1:6-9) to be forgiven of the sins committed. This is what Simon done in (Acts 8:12-24). It is called the second law of pardon.

    ...except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)


    Thanks
     
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