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Paul is not an Apostle

SethZaddik

Active Member
This may sound quite shocking to the average Christian who has never really thought twice about it, but did you know that Paul is NOT an Apostle according to anyone but himself and himself through Luke, who was not a disciple of Christ (p) in the flesh and not an Apostle either so has no say.

But Luke actually gives us proof that Paul can not be a legitimate Apostle. Acts 1:21 sets the rules for being an Apostle in (metaphorical) stone, confirming that 12 is a necessary number and not arbitrary but symbolic, obviously of the 12 tribes of Israel (or 11+ 2/2, 12).

"So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that lord Jesus (p) went in and went out among us---one of these must become a witness with us to his ressurection."

1:24 " Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these TWO YOU HAVE CHOSEN."

Matthias was chosen, by God, through prayer and lot, to replace Judas as one of TWO men ON EARTH even eligible to fill Judas' "place in this ministry and Apostleship."

Mathew 18:16 and Paul himself declare in 2 Corinthians 9:19

(Paul): "Any charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses."

Of the 22 times Paul is called "apostle" in the New Testament 20 times are by himself and 2 by Luke, who was not an authority or witness to Paul's alleged secret revelations from Jesus (p), and the three reports of Damascus road contradict each other irreconcilably, I wonder if Luke even believed Paul as he had to have been aware his account contradicted Paul's account that contradicts Paul's later account making him look like a liar, which is no issue as Paul boasts his lies "abound to God's glory."

So according to the law of witnesses according to Dt. 19:15 and in Mt. and in Paul's own words, Paul is not an Apostle.

According to Revelation "Vision of New Jerusalem" there are ONLY 12 Apostles of the Lamb.

According to Acts there can be no 13th "Apostle" which contradicts itself by calling Paul one, but it doesn't serve as eye witness testimony.

Paul never met Jesus (p). He was never called "Apostle" by a real Apostle.

He claims his theology was from "no man", that he was chosen by God and Jesus (p) to represent the gentiles, everything was revealed to him and nobody taught it to him.

Yet Jesus (p) told his disciples to make disciples of all nations, nations meaning gentiles or goyim, Acts records Peter was the leader of the Apostles mission to the gentiles.

Acts also reveals Paul and those with him were, "Forbidden by the Holy Spirit from preaching in Asia."

Paul writes to Timothy, "This YOU KNOW ALL, those who are in Asia have turned from me."

And Revelation was written specifically to the "7 Churches of Asia."

It seems apparent that Paul had little choice in the matter and his only option was to convert the Roman pagans to "his gospel" of justification by faith alone.

Very popular in heathen Rome I imagine, compared to the Mosaic Law. Except the Mosaic Law was never imposed on gentile converts so it was really moot, he had little success in his lifetime and if not for Marcion we wouldn't even know who "Paul" was, nobody cared until his cult, about Paul at all.

It is a tragedy that the Bible sets rules and then doesn't expect anyone to notice that Paul not only is not an Apostle but that he never was eligible in the first place.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
It might be old to me and maybe you but there are about 2 billion Christians who haven't a clue.

This is for them.

I think you maybe be overestimating a tad. Paul is never presented as an Apostle. His conversion after the fact is well documented. If there are "Christians" that believe Paul was an Apostle they obviously haven't read their Bibles. Are we sensing an agenda here?
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
I think you maybe be overestimating a tad. Paul is never presented as an Apostle. His conversion after the fact is well documented. If there are "Christians" that believe Paul was an Apostle they obviously haven't read their Bibles. Are we sensing an agenda here?

He is called an Apostle 22 times, 20 is him and 2 are Luke.

But I already covered that, pay attention please.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Paul does not support the existence of your Islam. This gives a motivation for you to imagine ways to debunk him. 'Proofs' are your tools and hardened, inflexible views of scriptures you reject already. Its not a problem to call him an apostle, but anyway whatever someone says has to be tested no matter who they are. It doesn't matter if they are an apostle.

So according to the law of witnesses according to Dt. 19:15 and in Mt. and in Paul's own words, Paul is not an Apostle.
This is a law about convicting people of crimes and resolving unfairness. Paul states his claim to apostleship is based upon all the lives he has touched which is in line with Jesus teaching that you can only tell good prophets by their fruit. Jesus statement is in accordance with Deuteronomy which says you cannot believe prophets based upon their miracles. There's no 'Two witnesses' requirement for apostles.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
I think you maybe be overestimating a tad. Paul is never presented as an Apostle. His conversion after the fact is well documented. If there are "Christians" that believe Paul was an Apostle they obviously haven't read their Bibles. Are we sensing an agenda here?

22 times is never?

Actually, my point was HE is the ONLY person who THINKS he is an Apostle and he presented HIMSELF as one, FALSLEY.

Also, his "conversion" is poorly documented, not even close to "well documented" and is contradictory which makes it being well documented a laughable sentiment.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
Paul does not support the existence of your Islam. This gives a motivation for you to imagine ways to debunk him. 'Proofs' are your tools and hardened, inflexible views of scriptures you reject already. Its not a problem to call him an apostle, but anyway whatever someone says has to be tested no matter who they are. It doesn't matter if they are an apostle.

This is a law about convicting people of crimes and resolving unfairness. Paul states his claim to apostleship is based upon all the lives he has touched which is in line with Jesus teaching that you can only tell good prophets by their fruit. Jesus statement is in accordance with Deuteronomy which says you cannot believe prophets based upon their miracles. There's no 'Two witnesses' requirement for apostles.


"Any claim" requires 2 witnesses ACCORDING TO PAUL.

Pay attention, I know what I am doing, you are obviously new to this topic and ignoring the fact that Paul himself said two or three witnesses for any charge/claim.

And since he has ZERO.

He is a hypocrite.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
Paul does not support the existence of your Islam. This gives a motivation for you to imagine ways to debunk him. 'Proofs' are your tools and hardened, inflexible views of scriptures you reject already. Its not a problem to call him an apostle, but anyway whatever someone says has to be tested no matter who they are. It doesn't matter if they are an apostle.

This is a law about convicting people of crimes and resolving unfairness. Paul states his claim to apostleship is based upon all the lives he has touched which is in line with Jesus teaching that you can only tell good prophets by their fruit. Jesus statement is in accordance with Deuteronomy which says you cannot believe prophets based upon their miracles. There's no 'Two witnesses' requirement for apostles.

It is not "My Islam" and Paul not supporting it is good news to me, he is nobody, a liar.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
in accordance with Deuteronomy which says you cannot believe prophets based upon their miracles.
So this throws out Jesus then? I mean you're right that miracles are not proof, but many Christians will use Jesus' miracles to try to prove his messiahship.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
So this throws out Jesus then? I mean you're right that miracles are not proof, but many Christians will use Jesus' miracles to try to prove his messiahship.

No, Jesus and the 12 Apostles (p)are fine, it is only Paul.

He has named witnesses, Paul doesn't.

Paul has Paul and even Luke provides evidence incriminating to Paul.

Everybody loves Jesus and the 12 Apostles. They are not arrogant jerks like Paul.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
No, Jesus and the 12 Apostles (p)are fine, it is only Paul.

He has named witnesses, Paul doesn't.

Paul has Paul and even Luke provides evidence incriminating to Paul.

Everybody loves Jesus and the 12 Apostles. They are not arrogant jerks like Paul.
I don't love Jesus.

I was just saying that his miracles can not be proof of his claim to be Mashiach.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="SethZaddik, post: 5125158, member: 61326"]This may sound quite shocking to the average Christian who has never really thought twice about it, but did you know that Paul is NOT an Apostle according to anyone but himself and himself through Luke, who was not a disciple of Christ (p) in the flesh and not an Apostle either so has no say.

But Luke actually gives us proof that Paul can not be a legitimate Apostle. Acts 1:21 sets the rules for being an Apostle in (metaphorical) stone, confirming that 12 is a necessary number and not arbitrary but symbolic, obviously of the 12 tribes of Israel (or 11+ 2/2, 12).

"So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that lord Jesus (p) went in and went out among us---one of these must become a witness with us to his ressurection."

1:24 " Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these TWO YOU HAVE CHOSEN."

Matthias was chosen, by God, through prayer and lot, to replace Judas as one of TWO men ON EARTH even eligible to fill Judas' "place in this ministry and Apostleship."

Mathew 18:16 and Paul himself declare in 2 Corinthians 9:19

(Paul): "Any charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses."

Of the 22 times Paul is called "apostle" in the New Testament 20 times are by himself and 2 by Luke, who was not an authority or witness to Paul's alleged secret revelations from Jesus (p), and the three reports of Damascus road contradict each other irreconcilably, I wonder if Luke even believed Paul as he had to have been aware his account contradicted Paul's account that contradicts Paul's later account making him look like a liar, which is no issue as Paul boasts his lies "abound to God's glory."


So according to the law of witnesses according to Dt. 19:15 and in Mt. and in Paul's own words, Paul is not an Apostle.
No witness needed what What Paul said was inspired by God.

According to Revelation "Vision of New Jerusalem" there are ONLY 12 Apostles of the Lamb.

That verse does not say there were only 12 apostles. It refers to THE apostles, the 12 originals. Barnabus was an apostle(Acts 14:14), Matthais was an apostle(Acts 1:26). James was an apostle(Gal 1:19). Since apostleship is a spiritual gift(Eph 4:11) ther are apostles today.

According to Acts there can be no 13th "Apostle" which contradicts itself by calling Paul one, but it doesn't serve as eye witness testimony.

How about chapter and verse.

Paul never met Jesus (p). He was never called "Apostle" by a real Apostle.

Paul met Jesus on the Road to Damascus. Igt is really irrelevant. God's told Paul to tell others he wa an apostle.

He claims his theology was from "no man", that he was chosen by God and Jesus (p) to represent the gentiles, everything was revealed to him and nobody taught it to him.

Present you evidence that is not right.

]Yet Jesus (p) told his disciples to make disciples of all nations, nations meaning gentiles or goyim, Acts records Peter was the leader of the Apostles mission to the gentiles.

Just the opposite---Gal 2:9.

Acts also reveals Paul and those with him were, "Forbidden by the Holy Spirit from preaching in Asia."

That was a one time occurance for a purpose. God want him to go to Macedonia. Paul did got to Asia several times later

Paul writes to Timothy, "This YOU KNOW ALL, those who are in Asia have turned from me."

Whatg's your point? No missionary is eve 100% successful.

And Revelation was written specifically to the "7 Churches of Asia."

Those 7 churches represent 7 types of churches throughout church history.


>>It seems apparent that Paul had little choice in the matter and his only option was to convert the Roman pagans to "his gospel" of justification by faith alone.[/QUOTE]

Paul did not convert anyone. He preached the Gospel and if anyone wad converted it was by the hand of God/


Very popular in heathen Rome I imagine, compared to the Mosaic Law. Except the Mosaic Law was never imposed on gentile converts so it was really moot, he had little success in his lifetime and if not for Marcion we wouldn't even know who "Paul" was, nobody cared until his cult, about Paul at all.

It is a tragedy that the Bible sets rules and then doesn't expect anyone to notice that Paul not only is not an Apostle but that he never was eligible in the first place.

It is amusing when non-believers try to interpret the Bible. They only reveal their ignorance or the ignorance of the website from which they got their info.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I think you maybe be overestimating a tad. Paul is never presented as an Apostle. His conversion after the fact is well documented. If there are "Christians" that believe Paul was an Apostle they obviously haven't read their Bibles. Are we sensing an agenda here?

The agenda is that skeptics are saying something the Bible says is true, is not true.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
I don't love Jesus.

I was just saying that his miracles can not be proof of his claim to be Mashiach.

So you don't love Jesus, obviously I wasn't being literal when I said everybody loves Jesus, whole religions don't even like him, Mandaeans, most of Judaism.

Frankly miracles have nothing to do with this topic which is regarding the rules set forth for being an Apostle and Paul's not being eligible according to Luke (Acts).

His not having a single eye witness to his Damascus road conversion myth, his not corroborating it himself and his claims to secret revelations that require but don't have eye witness testimony don't have aught to do with Jesus (p) miracles.

Jesus (p) miracles were usually healings and both have testimony from at least possibly (unlikely though) eye witnesses.

Paul has nobody, nothing and the two are seperation issues altogether. Maybe you can make a thread about Jesus' (p) miracles.

This is about Paul's lack of a single eye witness and illegitimate claim to being an Apostle.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
[QUOTE="SethZaddik, post: 5125158, member: 61326"]This may sound quite shocking to the average Christian who has never really thought twice about it, but did you know that Paul is NOT an Apostle according to anyone but himself and himself through Luke, who was not a disciple of Christ (p) in the flesh and not an Apostle either so has no say.

But Luke actually gives us proof that Paul can not be a legitimate Apostle. Acts 1:21 sets the rules for being an Apostle in (metaphorical) stone, confirming that 12 is a necessary number and not arbitrary but symbolic, obviously of the 12 tribes of Israel (or 11+ 2/2, 12).

"So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that lord Jesus (p) went in and went out among us---one of these must become a witness with us to his ressurection."

1:24 " Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these TWO YOU HAVE CHOSEN."

Matthias was chosen, by God, through prayer and lot, to replace Judas as one of TWO men ON EARTH even eligible to fill Judas' "place in this ministry and Apostleship."

Mathew 18:16 and Paul himself declare in 2 Corinthians 9:19

(Paul): "Any charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses."

Of the 22 times Paul is called "apostle" in the New Testament 20 times are by himself and 2 by Luke, who was not an authority or witness to Paul's alleged secret revelations from Jesus (p), and the three reports of Damascus road contradict each other irreconcilably, I wonder if Luke even believed Paul as he had to have been aware his account contradicted Paul's account that contradicts Paul's later account making him look like a liar, which is no issue as Paul boasts his lies "abound to God's glory."


So according to the law of witnesses according to Dt. 19:15 and in Mt. and in Paul's own words, Paul is not an Apostle.

No witness needed what What Paul said was inspired by God.



That verse does not say there were only 12 apostles. It refers to THE apostles, the 12 originals. Barnabus was an apostle(Acts 14:14), Matthais was an apostle(Acts 1:26). James was an apostle(Gal 1:19). Since apostleship is a spiritual gift(Eph 4:11) ther are apostles today.



How about chapter and verse.



Paul met Jesus on the Road to Damascus. Igt is really irrelevant. God's told Paul to tell others he wa an apostle.



Present you evidence that is not right.



Just the opposite---Gal 2:9.



That was a one time occurance for a purpose. God want him to go to Macedonia. Paul did got to Asia several times later



Whatg's your point? No missionary is eve 100% successful.



Those 7 churches represent 7 types of churches throughout church history.


>>It seems apparent that Paul had little choice in the matter and his only option was to convert the Roman pagans to "his gospel" of justification by faith alone.

Paul did not convert anyone. He preached the Gospel and if anyone wad converted it was by the hand of God/




It is amusing when non-believers try to interpret the Bible. They only reveal their ignorance or the ignorance of the website from which they got their info.[/QUOTE]

I am not a non believer and am definitely qualified to interpret the Bible, you reveal your ignorance when you spew insults like unbeliever as if Christians only can read and understand the New Testament.

And don't include one fact, not a single rebuttal, basically you are saying only that you are upset, can't do anything about it but wish to complain nonetheless.

Please show me where my interpretation is off?

I dare you.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
[QUOTE="SethZaddik, post: 5125158, member: 61326"]This may sound quite shocking to the average Christian who has never really thought twice about it, but did you know that Paul is NOT an Apostle according to anyone but himself and himself through Luke, who was not a disciple of Christ (p) in the flesh and not an Apostle either so has no say.

But Luke actually gives us proof that Paul can not be a legitimate Apostle. Acts 1:21 sets the rules for being an Apostle in (metaphorical) stone, confirming that 12 is a necessary number and not arbitrary but symbolic, obviously of the 12 tribes of Israel (or 11+ 2/2, 12).

"So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that lord Jesus (p) went in and went out among us---one of these must become a witness with us to his ressurection."

1:24 " Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these TWO YOU HAVE CHOSEN."

Matthias was chosen, by God, through prayer and lot, to replace Judas as one of TWO men ON EARTH even eligible to fill Judas' "place in this ministry and Apostleship."

Mathew 18:16 and Paul himself declare in 2 Corinthians 9:19

(Paul): "Any charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses."

Of the 22 times Paul is called "apostle" in the New Testament 20 times are by himself and 2 by Luke, who was not an authority or witness to Paul's alleged secret revelations from Jesus (p), and the three reports of Damascus road contradict each other irreconcilably, I wonder if Luke even believed Paul as he had to have been aware his account contradicted Paul's account that contradicts Paul's later account making him look like a liar, which is no issue as Paul boasts his lies "abound to God's glory."


So according to the law of witnesses according to Dt. 19:15 and in Mt. and in Paul's own words, Paul is not an Apostle.

No witness needed what What Paul said was inspired by God.



That verse does not say there were only 12 apostles. It refers to THE apostles, the 12 originals. Barnabus was an apostle(Acts 14:14), Matthais was an apostle(Acts 1:26). James was an apostle(Gal 1:19). Since apostleship is a spiritual gift(Eph 4:11) ther are apostles today.



How about chapter and verse.



Paul met Jesus on the Road to Damascus. Igt is really irrelevant. God's told Paul to tell others he wa an apostle.



Present you evidence that is not right.



Just the opposite---Gal 2:9.



That was a one time occurance for a purpose. God want him to go to Macedonia. Paul did got to Asia several times later



Whatg's your point? No missionary is eve 100% successful.



Those 7 churches represent 7 types of churches throughout church history.


>>It seems apparent that Paul had little choice in the matter and his only option was to convert the Roman pagans to "his gospel" of justification by faith alone.

Paul did not convert anyone. He preached the Gospel and if anyone wad converted it was by the hand of God/




It is amusing when non-believers try to interpret the Bible. They only reveal their ignorance or the ignorance of the website from which they got their info.[/QUOTE]

Vision of The New Jerusalem ABSOLUTELY states "Twelve Apostles of the Lamb."

Not 13. Barnabas is only called Apostle by Luke who also calls Paul that but has no authority and is the guy who wrote the qualifications set forth in Acts 1 for being an Apostle.

So he contradicted himself (Luke) and neither Paul OR Barnabas are Apostles.

Because there can be 12 only, like the 12 tribes, like Jesus (p) chose and Revelation concurs.

"God's (sic) told Paul to tell the others he was an Apostle."

ACCORDING TO PAUL!!!

What witnesses does he have?

Zero!

Try again!
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
It's amusing when Christians call other religions, even religions that believe in Jesus, non believers.

Because in my experience nobody understands the Bible LESS than your average Christian.

They read everything out of context and when something is put in context they claim it is being taken out of context because that is how they have been taught to study.

In context the New Testament falls apart on the subject of Paul being anything important to Jesus (p).

Who never mentions him where he should, Revelation, (or at all, Luke is obviously telling a myth not even Paul corroborated) except to congratulate Ephesus for rejecting false apostles, condemning him for teaching the "doctrine of Balaam" (eating meat sacrificed to idols is OK says Paul, Jesus condemns).
 
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