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Featured Paul Didn't Know Jesus

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by idav, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. idav

    idav Being
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    It's the difference between the book being infallible (good for matters of faith) or inerrant (without error). It is not without error but I am open to it being good for matters of salvation.
     
  2. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    When a person accuses another person of something, that person has the burden proof, to prove that said person is guilty of the crime Whether they are a Politician or not.
    What does Sunday have to do with anything ?
     
  3. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    I agree. But there is a difference between error and (mis)understanding. People see for Paul to call for women to be silent in church. But he said that to one church, Without knowing what Paul is "responding" to, of what was told him, we mis-take his response. It may have been due to the wailing women did. One verse does not define Pauls message. You need to get the whole picture by the many pieces (of the jigsaw puzzle, as I said). See a pattern, not a single description.

    Gnosis teaches this:
    But truth brought names into existence in the world for our sakes, because it is not possible to learn it (truth) without these names. Truth is one single thing; it is many things and for our sakes to teach about this one thing in love through many things.-Gospel of Philip

    Don't see "Paul said" or John said" or "Moses said". Words can be changed, misinterpreted. It brings on the father of confusion, the reason the orthodox (many) argue among themselves. And even the disciples argued among themselves.

    The Gospel of Mary:

    1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.

    2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.

    3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.

    4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?

    5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?

    6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.

    7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.

    8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.

    9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.

    10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.


    Is this truth? Peter created the patriarch catholic ideology. Paul traveled with female apostle Thecla. But the catholics do not want us to believe it. Open your mind and the Spirit will teach. Close it, and you follow catholic ideology. Seek truth, and you see the "wolves in sheeps clothing". Challenge the sheep, and the wolf emerges.

    Know the wolves, by the dung they leave behind, not by their appearance.
     
  4. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Without Paul, would Christianity exist? Certainly not in it's current form. Paul gave form to the church. Attacking Paul legitimacy as an Apostle attacks the foundation of Christianity.

    In asking why Christian are not more "Christ" like, you can blame Paul, IMO.

    Here's a question. The Gospels, were they written by followers of Jesus or Paul?

    Paul had a vision of Jesus likely brought on because of guilt of his earlier persecution of the followers of Jesus. His entire "Christ" theology is likely something that sprang out of his subconscious mind. He believe the visions, dreams, inspirations came from Jesus, a character created by his subconscious mind. That is likely the only authority he possessed.

    It seems obvious that he believed in his authority completely.

    To me, without Paul, Jesus seems like a cool Jewish mystic. However what do we really know about Jesus? Especially if Paul's theology had any influence in the writing of the Gospels?
     
  5. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    It's letter to the church. It's not about who the sinners are. It's about how sins are legalized inside the church. This is the same course for today's homosexuality. We stay away from it not because it's a sin, but rather it's an attempt to legalize a known abomination of God inside the church.
     
  6. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    I'm sure most Christians have homosexual friends, they just don't know about it.
     
  7. idav

    idav Being
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    Q source for the gospels is a hypothesis I consider accurate considering the finding and location of the Gospel of Thomas especially considering they contain similar sayings as the synoptic gospels.
    The Story Of The Storytellers - More About Q And The Gospel Of Thomas | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

    Synoptic Gospels - Wikipedia
     
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  8. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    You see it while others follow the orthodox ideology. Through gnosis, it is seen like this:

    Synoptics and John are the "Acts of Jesus" (the actions of the flesh and words spoken by Spirit)

    Thomas is the "sayings gospel" (the words spoken by the Spirit)

    Paul is the "revealing of the Spirit" (spoken by flesh)

    The book of Acts is the "actions of the Spirit"

    I all cases, the Spirit (capital S) is interacting and teaching man.

    John says:
    37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    If the Holy Ghost was not yet given, who were the Jews listening to? And continue to listen to.

    Gnosis is the men who understood (the mystery) and continued to write what the Spirit within them was revealing, just like Paul. And the orthodox seek answers from men "claiming" they heard and followed God, when Jesus, many times, said that they didn't.

    It's why only Paul uses the term "hidden knowledge" (in canon).

    1 Corinth:
    6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    And the Gospel of Thomas says the same thing:
    (108) Jesus said, "He who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."

    Sophia=wisdom.

    Verse 8 has Paul saying that if the Jews had had it, they would not have crucified Christ. They never had it, as it is revealed by the Spirit in gnosis.

    Orthodoxy follows rejecting spiritual gnosis. Pure and simple.
     
    #128 Phantasman, Dec 9, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
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  9. idav

    idav Being
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    Well Orthodox believe in gnosis but give all those keys to the father/priest.
     
  10. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.

    (39) Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."- Gospel of Thomas

    The church fathers read them and didn't understand them. Called them heresy and tried to destroy them. Same as the Jews who killed the Savior.

    Be wise and innocent, as the gnostics were.
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It was the Romans, and appears to be a charge of what we might call "treason" since crucifixion was only done for largely severe crimes. Also, the Romans couldn't care less about Jewish Law.
     
  12. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Pilate found no fault with Jesus. It was the Jews who called for Jesus death. The Romans performed the request of the judging Jews, who chose a barbaric thief over Jesus. Treason and blasphemy are different. One action based, the other verbal.

    The Romans sure cared in 66AD.
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    All scripture is subjective, and if one actually talks to a Roman historian, they'll tell ya that there simply is no precedent that they know of for that supposed action.

    And there is not a single piece of evidence that has the Romans putting Jesus on trial for blasphemy, especially since they used crucifixion. Jesus said and did some things that the Romans would have judged to be treasonous that would explain why they used that form of death penalty, especially about his talking about his own "kingdom" and also the turning of tables over near the Temple, which was a rather lucrative form of income for the Romans.

    As they saw Christianity as undermining the sovereignty of Rome under Nero because of the Christian belief in Jesus' "kingdom". Two other Roman emperors later did much the same to the early church.
     
  14. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Coming from orthodox thought. There were many historic accounts that we chose to accept or deny.

    I find the Acts of Pilate to be a more accurate account, than orthodox thought. Jesus answers Pilate when he asks "what is truth". Orhodoxy has Jesus remain silent so the priests can answer it for you.

    Pilate says to them: Do you take him, and punish him in whatever way you please. The Jews say to Pilate: we wish that he be crucified. Pilate says: He is not deserving of crucifixion.- Gospel of Nicodemus/Acts of Pilate

    Gospel of Nicodemus: Acts of Pilate (ANF text)

    It's all in what the Spirit reveals "to you".
     
  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    When I wrote "authentication from OTHER apostles", I was thinking of recognized apostles confirming Paul's words in the NT, and allowing him to speak in the Acts 15 council--and then following his ideas in the same council!
     
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