1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Paul Didn't Know Jesus

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by idav, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    38,775
    Ratings:
    +19,401
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    This is not a trial but an election, and your approach is to vote for a morally-bankrupt man that has women coming forth accusing him of molestation even though they have nothing to gain from it and some things to lose. Moore, otoh, has a record of dishonesty that doesn't seem to bother you one iota.

    He was twice removed as chief justice of the Alabama's supreme court for violating both state and federal laws, and you think that's all fine & dandy, right?
    I see it about equal based on following politics very closely over the last five decades, especially since I used to teach political science (as well as anthropology).

    Like helping the poor that you actually believe is optional for someone who says (s)he's a Christian as we've seen? Like having compassion for others that Jesus taught? Like telling the truth like Jesus did? I'm not sure which "Jesus" you believe in but it appears that it's not the one who's in the Bible.

    You have obviously never studied Jewish Law so you literally do not know what you're talking about. The Temple funds covered various expenses including helping the poor and the widows.
     
  2. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,943
    Ratings:
    +581
    Religion:
    Christian
    You can not convict a person just because someone says this or that ,there has to be witnesses to the fact. And a person is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.
    Unless you think that a person can say whatever about you and that's enough to convict you.
     
  3. idav

    idav Being
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    Copying what the real apostles were saying is hardly prophecy.
     
  4. idav

    idav Being
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    It is apparent that Paul needs a bunch of apologetics so we don't, misinterpret, the very words we can see in black and white. Sounds exactly like a politician. Jesus words don't need apologetics, they are a fine on their own because he didn't just preached the words, jesus lived the words.
     
  5. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +467
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    Sex isn't in play here. It's flesh. Whether it's same sex or opposite sex, it's desire of flesh, not spirit. Jesus said that the "flesh profits nothing" in obtaining (true) life. John 6:63

    Paul says the same thing:
    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
    .......
    12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
    13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
    14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
    15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

    The desires of flesh are of the carnal man, animal instincts. Though unavoidable, they have their place, and Paul is saying that through spirit, we rise above them. Grace (from the Father) is the patience and understanding of this difficulty. Even Paul had the same problems:

    2 Corinth:
    7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
    8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
    9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    This "thorn" could have been anything from "masturbation" to "ego", but clearly a "fleshly desire" none the less.

    Paul never saw himself as perfect.
     
  6. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +467
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    Same with Peter.
     
  7. idav

    idav Being
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    I didn't say sex, I said sexual act.
     
  8. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +467
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    Take it as you should by seeking for yourself, and NOT following men.

    Geneva 1599 Bible:
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two in one bed: the one shall be received, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    36 Two shall be in the field: one shall be received, and another shall be left.

    The KJV (translated and corrupted from the original Tyndale and Wycliffe) misleads. Why were "men" added to verse 34? For people like you to confuse the intent.

    Truth comes not only by seeking, but where you seek. Orthodoxy is a corrupt change that stems back to the 1st century church fathers.

    There is a reason Jesus said that the Spirit will teach us "all truth". Because words of men cannot.
     
  9. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +467
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    I intended it as the act, and not gender.
     
  10. idav

    idav Being
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    What I meant was sexual relations which should cover a wide spectrum of things, depends who you talk to I guess.
     
  11. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +467
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    I guess it comes down to what "sexual relations" is meant to intend. Can two men love each other? Can they seek sexual orgasmic satisfaction with each other without love (ie desire by frustration)? Is the desire only limited to the opposite sex? How about age differential such as a 45 yo man and 10 yo girl?

    Paul was teaching the desire of the flesh and how it relates to what "true" love was. The word "de-sire" is derivative as "of father", of the father. Or in Pauls case....Father. The Father is love. Sexual desire is of the father of the flesh.

    It's hard to see the dual Gods Jesus taught of, unless you (spiritually) see them.

    Reread this carefully, and open your mind.

    John 8:
    41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

    Paul and Jesus are on the same page.

    There is the god of flesh, and the God of Spirit. When you see them both (through gnosis), the whole truth (of Christ) opens your eyes and you are amazed at why you couldn't see it. The Gospel and Paul, comes alive. You are no longer dead, but free of the illusion caused by ignorance. Then these two non canon verses become the basis of seeking:

    Gospel of Thomas:
    (2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

    Gospel of Philip:
    Most things in the world, as long as their inner parts are hidden, stand upright and live. If they are revealed, they die, as is illustrated by the visible man: as long as the intestines of the man are hidden, the man is alive; when his intestines are exposed and come out of him, the man will die. So also with the tree: while its root is hidden, it sprouts and grows. If its root is exposed, the tree dries up. So it is with every birth that is in the world, not only with the revealed but with the hidden. For so long as the root of wickedness is hidden, it is strong. But when it is recognized, it is dissolved. When it is revealed, it perishes. That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were, nor are, nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.

    Now read John:
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    The father of the flesh is not the Father of the spirit. See the difference. Jesus brought truth (as a seed), but the Holy Spirit makes it grow, and takes it further than the 4 canon gospels do. The orthodox believe the Bible is "all truth". I do not see that.......at all.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    38,775
    Ratings:
    +19,401
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    Again, it's an election, not a court trial. In an election, one tends to vote for whom they believe in and about the most.
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,943
    Ratings:
    +581
    Religion:
    Christian
    Election or not, You still can not convict a person on someone say, Whether it's a Politician or not There's the due process of the law, A person is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. It doesn't matter whether they are a Democrate or Republican, You can not convict a person just because someone will say this or that about them. That's why there is the due process of the law and a person is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    38,775
    Ratings:
    +19,401
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    How many times do I have to remind you that "convict" relates to trials, and elections are clearly not trials?

    You have chosen to not believe the many women who have nothing to gain by telling the truth, and yet you blindly believe and support a man who has a terrible track record when it comes to honesty and who has a lot to gain by convincing people like you to vote for him. And my guess is that you're a Trump voter and supporter as well, and his track-record for honesty and integrity goes beyond utter depravity.

    I guess you'll have to decide which is more important: Biblical morality or your loyal support to some right-wing politicians that have Moore's and Trump's track-records. Your choice, but if it's the latter, then don't come back here and tell us that you actually believe in Jesus and the Bible.

    IOW, or you going to be a "Sheep" or a "Goat" (Matthew 25). Is Jesus' teachings important to you or not?
     
  15. idav

    idav Being
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    Yes there are laws that place sexual limits on desires, they don't have to be religious based, logic is pretty helpful with all that.
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,943
    Ratings:
    +581
    Religion:
    Christian

    How many times do I have to remind you, it doesn't matter, You can not convict anyone on one witness.
    So where's the proof of evidence.

    Have you read 1 Thess 5:21--"Prove all things"
    Deuteronomy 19:15--"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses shall the matter be established"

    Therefore even God calls that there has to be two witnesses or three witnesses shall the matter be established, Therefore it doesn't matter to God whether they are a Politician or not, There has to be two or three witnesses shall the matter be established.

    So where's the witnesses ?
     
    #116 Faithofchristian, Dec 7, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  17. idav

    idav Being
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    This is pretty interesting but you really have to scrounge through translations to find one that doesn't imply two men laying in the bed. When the kjv is agreeing with the niv that's pretty telling to me.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  18. idav

    idav Being
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    I don't think it is an issue that he didn't know Jesus, he probably wouldn't have had to use personal opinion.
    God’s Word or Paul’s Personal Opinion? « Biola Magazine
     
  19. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +467
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    It's more about studying all books of the time (canon or non) and putting all the pieces together to get a clear picture.......like a picture puzzle. The OT is different pieces of a different puzzle, and doesn't fit to complete the clear image the Gospel pieces do by fitting together more perfectly. I have always said "perspective". See it all, before you decide what is and what isn't.

    Mark 14:51-52 have many thinking Jesus could have been gay. Google it. And the Secret book of Mark is supposed to be part of what was possibly endorsed, but removed by Clement. Clement said that these words were between Mark 10:34 and 35.

    And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me." But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.

    To catholic Clement, he says he see's "man laying with man". And rebukes Mark. The catholics destroyed most all non canon books, and tainted the canon ones. We cannot go back much further than 400 AD for most all Christian books.

    But when you understand spiritual gnosis, you don't see it as Clement or other catholics did, man with man. That's the physical, the flesh they were blinded by. It didn't matter that the young man was rich, or naked. It was spirit to spirit. The mother of Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit. Yet catholics changed her to he (Aramaic to Latin changed the gender of spirit). They worship a statue (that probably doesn't even truly resemble physical Mary).

    IMO, this is the subtle way the Demiurge instills his error into appearing as truth. Those who follow the catholic ideology hate gnosis, and they don't even know why. They just follow a well trodden path. I've studied both views extensively. They haven't. It's like being stoned while watching the move "Reefer Madness".
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    38,775
    Ratings:
    +19,401
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    Why do you continue to misrepresent things while at the same time quoting scripture? This is an election, not a trial!

    Also, there have been multiple accusations, definitely more than two, but you'd rather believe in a man who's notorious for his dishonesty under the law and has a track record of stalking teens when he was in his 30's. Aren't you even aware of the fact that most molestations are not done in public? And yet we have a woman who has shown Moore's autograph that he gave to her, plus several women telling her family and friends back then what he did to her. Around 60 of them at last count.

    All that you have established is that your politics is far more important to you than any belief about Jesus and God. What a shame. So, unless you have something significant to add, this post of mine ends my part of this conversation, and I hope that you do some serious soul-searching as to where your priorities really are versus where they probably should be. Maybe this Sunday might be a good time to do just that.

    Take care.
     
    #120 metis, Dec 8, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
    • Winner Winner x 1
Loading...