Paul - An Apostle?

[Triumph]

Please do try and ask someone here like @metis if Jesus is God. Thank you.

You quote Hebrews which are the words of a man that calls himself a Pharisee even after he called himself an Apostle. You are aware that Jesus disapproves of Pharisees and said none are in the kingdom of heaven? Paul is verifying he will never be in the kingdom of Heaven by calling himself a Pharisee.
Acts 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."
Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

[Triumph]

That's not the point, so maybe try again.

For example, are the 613 Laws in Torah "perversions of scripture", yes or no? They're right there in black & white to read.

One of those 613 laws claim a Jew has the right to own a slave. Jews are allowed to beat their slave to death male or female.
I call that a perversion.

 

[Sedim Haba]

.... Abraham had scribes write he was chosen and that is true. Jesus said the Christ is not from the bloodline of Abraham. That makes the bloodline covenant Abraham claims to have with God not true.

The 'scribe' you accuse of lying is Moses. Why do you believe ANY of the 'Bible' if you think the
foundation of the faith is false, then? Why do you believe in 'Jesus' when you declare the Torah
and therefore the Prophets to be lies? There's no 'Jesus' without Jews, and no Jews without
Torah and no Torah without Moses and G-d redeeming HIS people out of Egypt, and no People
without Abraham. SO, what foundation do you have in your 'Jesus' when you deny EVERYTHING?

 

[nPeace]

In a court of law a man that instigates a murder, approving of it, witnessing the bloody event, and stealing the possession of the victim being murdered is guilty of murder.

Okay. ...and where in the Bible do you see Paul instigate murder?
Which book, Chapter, and verse?
Since there is none, you simply are stating your belief, in rejecting Paul... for what personal reason? I don't know.

Besides that point, even if Paul had commited murder, before he converted - when he was Saul, there is no record in the Bible that says Paul murdered, murders, or threatens to murder anyone.
In fact, the only person that hold on to the past actions of Paul, is you... and @2ndpillar and maybe a handful of those of like mind, but Paul was forgiven for his past actions - persecution of Jesus followers... not murder. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Interestingly, in his first letter, the apostle John identified whom God views as a murderer - 1 John 3:15

For example, a mafia boss that wants a man dead will order his minions to commit the murder when they do the mafia boss is guilty of murder even though he did not do the act. The boss is the hand and those that obey him are the blade, so all are guilty of murder.

That is true.
That does not compare in any way to Paul... unless you are applying it to having people put in prison - taking away their freedom.

 

[nPeace]

You quote Hebrews which are the words of a man that calls himself a Pharisee even after he called himself an Apostle. You are aware that Jesus disapproves of Pharisees and said none are in the kingdom of heaven? Paul is verifying he will never be in the kingdom of Heaven by calling himself a Pharisee.
Acts 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."
Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Again, this is not true.
Jesus forgives. I'm not seeing that demonstrated in you.

Did Jesus dine with Pharisees? Yes. Why? He told us. Did you read it, or would you like me to quote it.
A Pharisee came to Jesus by night. Do you know his name, or do I need to tell you?
Was he not the same one, who assisted another secret disciple, in preparing Jesus' body for burial?

Who converted, when it became evident that God's spirit was leading the first century Christians?
The answer - Acts 6:7
(Acts 15:5) But some of those of the sect of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and command them to observe the Law of Moses.”

So again, here is more heaps of proof that you don't know the Bible, and you are totally not in agreement with it.
I hope you know where that leaves you.

 

[nPeace]

You obviously do not use the bible as the basis for your beliefs. Shame about that. Gods word is truth. If you dont' accept it as it is, then God cannot help you.

Makes one wonder why he quotes it...but I realize that he doesn't understand even what he quotes. I think we both know why.

 

[nPeace]

What I am saying is scriptural. You are not reading what Jesus said compared to what Paul said. They do not match.
God did not send Jesus to teach truth for salvation, then accept a man that claims the doctrine Jesus taught is wrong.

What you are saying, and what the scriptures are saying, do not match.
Up to this point, you have not shown that Paul claims the doctrine Jesus taught is wrong.
You said it because you claim your beliefs are true, but I proved you are wrong - Paul did not preach circumcision.
You said nothing.

Why? Why ask me to prove something, and when I do, you keep silent... then repeat the same baseless claim?
Prove you are right. Your claims lie empty without proof.

 

[2ndpillar]

Besides that point, even if Paul had commited murder, before he converted - when he was Saul, there is no record in the Bible that says Paul murdered, murders, or threatens to murder anyone.
In fact, the only person that hold on to the past actions of Paul, is you... and @2ndpillar and maybe a handful of those of like mind, but Paul was forgiven for his past actions - persecution of Jesus followers... not murder. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

When the "persecution of Jesus followers" results in their deaths, as in modern U.S. law, the people who are involved in a felony, which resulted in death, are subjected to a murder charge. The circumstances are different only in that in the Roman empire, no one could go around killing/persecuting people without consent from the Roman government. Paul with an apparent relationship with Herod, no doubt had a consent decree from the Roman government to persecute "Jesus followers", as he had a self-confessed record of persecuting such. The persecution of Jews, and apparent "Jesus followers" was under the authority of the beasts, such as the Roman emperors and their minions. Apparently, at the "end of the age", the beasts and their minions, the tares, as well as the false prophets, "those who commit lawlessness" will be dealt with (Matthew 13:39-42).

 

[2ndpillar]

Read the account in Acts Chapter 9. That is all. If you can't accept the scriptures as truth, then you are believing the lies of apostates.

Your canon of "scripture" comes from the "Mother of harlots" via the festal letter of Easter (pagan god Astarte of Babylon), from the bishop of Alexandria, who was a supporter of the false dogma of the Trinity, written in 367 A.D. way past the falling away (Zechariah 13 & Matthew 26:31). As Constantine was the beast with two horns like a lamb, who was to "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth", I am thinking your point of view is a bit like having a house built on sand (Matthew 7:24-27).

 

[nPeace]

I give you an exact quote from the Bible that proves what I am saying is right and then you reply that I do not use the Bible as a basis for my beliefs.
Paul never stopped being a Jew, what Paul added to his old religion is the name Jesus to represent the military Christ the Jews are expecting in the future to kill all of their enemies, so Jews rule the world.
Galatians 1:14
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers."
Paul remained zealous of the traditions of his fathers believing everything they taught, even after he claimed to convert to the New religion Jesus established. When Jesus said do not pour the old wine into the new wine because it will destroy it, Jesus was talking about don't mix the old Jewish beliefs with the new beliefs Jesus was teaching because they are not compatible, they are very different religions and Jesus changed the old beliefs. But Paul taught,
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Paul taught do keep believing in everything that was the Jewish religion, don't accept any change. That is Paul's epistle.
In John chapter 7 Jesus said,
19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?"
The law that Jesus supports as given from God to Moses was the 10 Commandments and the Commandment "do not kill" was ignored by the Jews including Paul that agreed Jesus should die. Jesus is teaching it is God's desire that Jesus not be killed.
1 Peter 1:18
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were NOT redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;"
Peter is telling us that the traditional belief in blood sacrifice for sin redeemed no one. To believe in blood sacrifice is vanity. Righteousness cannot be bought so Paul lies when he said we are redeemed with the purchased life of Jesus.
Acts 8:20
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."
That 30 pieces of silver that the Jews paid for Jesus will cause them to perish because the gift of redemption
is not given with human or animal sacrifice. Paul with the other Jews believe it can while Jesus taught it cannot.

You misunderstand and misapply the scriptures, as I pointed out before.
Paul never stopped being a Jew
?
What does that mean? How does a Jew stop being a Jew? Do they become a Gentile?
Do you understand what you are saying?

Do you actually read the Bible, or do you just look for verses, then try to adjust them to what you believe.
(Galatians 1:13-20) 13 Of course, you heard about my conduct formerly in Judaism, that I kept intensely persecuting the congregation of God and devastating it; 14 and I was making greater progress in Judaism than many of my own age in my nation, as I was far more zealous for the traditions of my fathers. ...

Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my former way of life in Judaism, how severely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
Galatians 1:14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Past tense.
There is loads of proof that you are not even understanding the texts you are quoting. I'm not sure you are even trying to. Do you read the context at all?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Paul taught do keep believing in everything that was the Jewish religion, don't accept any change. That is Paul's epistle.

Really?
(2 Thessalonians 2:14, 15) 14 He called you to this through the good news we declare, so that you may acquire the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain your hold on the traditions that you were taught, whether it was by a spoken message or by a letter from us.

No. Paul is talking about the Good news they are declaring from the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[2ndpillar]

may I ask what makes you believe in Jesus if you claim to?

You have light, the message of the son of man, the truth, and you have darkness, the message of the devil, communicated by the "false prophets" (Matthew 13:37-42 & 7:13-15). Paul would be a "foremost" "false prophet", and his message from the devil, is planted in the same "field"/book as the message of the son of man (Matthew 13:25-29). You are apparently attracted to the darkness, and place your flag on the mountain of Babylon, which is destined to be thrown into the sea.

 

[nPeace]

When the "persecution of Jesus followers" results in their deaths, as in modern U.S. law, the people who are involved in a felony, which resulted in death, are subjected to a murder charge. The circumstances are different only in that in the Roman empire, no one could go around killing/persecuting people without consent from the Roman government. Paul with an apparent relationship with Herod, no doubt had a consent decree from the Roman government to persecute "Jesus followers", as he had a self-confessed record of persecuting such. The persecution of Jews, and apparent "Jesus followers" was under the authority of the beasts, such as the Roman emperors and their minions. Apparently, at the "end of the age", the beasts and their minions, the tares, as well as the false prophets, "those who commit lawlessness" will be dealt with (Matthew 13:39-42).

Yes, manslaughter, not murder.... and... ?
Do you believe that Jesus forgives sinners who act in ignorance?
Do you believe Jesus commands that you do the same?
Does your father in heaven forgive you, if you do not forgive others?

 

[Triumph]

Okay. ...and where in the Bible do you see Paul instigate murder?
Which book, Chapter, and verse?
Since there is none, you simply are stating your belief, in rejecting Paul... for what personal reason? I don't know.

Besides that point, even if Paul had commited murder, before he converted - when he was Saul, there is no record in the Bible that says Paul murdered, murders, or threatens to murder anyone.
In fact, the only person that hold on to the past actions of Paul, is you... and @2ndpillar and maybe a handful of those of like mind, but Paul was forgiven for his past actions - persecution of Jesus followers... not murder. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Interestingly, in his first letter, the apostle John identified whom God views as a murderer - 1 John 3:15


That is true.
That does not compare in any way to Paul... unless you are applying it to having people put in prison - taking away their freedom.

Paul is a Pharisee, Hebrew/Jewish temple priest that demands people pay money for blood sacrifices that pay his bills making him rich. ALL Jews agreed Jesus should die because the High Priest Caiaphas demanded it because they were going broke losing people that no longer believed that blood sacrifice removed sin so they no longer supported the temple nor paid for money sacrifices. They were whole having their sins removed with merciful water baptism and wanted nothing to do with temple blood sacrifice laws.
Paul claimed no one was more zealous in support for the temple beliefs than Paul is, and Paul claims he is the "Hebrew of Hebrews".
Matthew 26:57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. 59Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;"
Understand PAUL is a Pharisee, a chief priest under the High Priest, and Paul sought false witness against Jesus meaning Paul invents lies to discredit Jesus.
Paul profits from blood sacrifice money and is against anyone saying God does not require blood sacrifices to remove sin. Saul is Paul.
Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." Paul not only threatens to kill Christians, but Paul also SLAUGHTERS them.
Paul supports the High Priest, kills people for rejecting blood sacrifice for sin removal and was smart enough with his religious craft of lying as a false witness, to sway people into paying Paul to teach them that God demands blood sacrifice for sin removal, so it was correct and necessary to demand the death of Jesus just like the High Priest did.
Paul continues to monetarily profit from the death of an innocent life just like Paul did in the Jewish temple. The difference between Saul and Paul is that now Paul is paid the money Paul requires as tithes, not the High Priest and Paul refuses to pay the High Priest he still claims to support, any money even after the temple demanded that Paul give them their cut of the profits. Paul is a murdering, lying, thief and his beliefs are based on self-exaltation and greed as Paul forms his own new religion leading people away from the new religion Jesus established.

 

[metis]

Here is what the Bible says:
Luke chapter 13.
"On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” 13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”
15 The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”

Again, the 613 Commandments as found in Torah have always been referred to as God's Law in the Bible, which was and is my point.

 

[metis]

... but the Jews break that command for the sake of their tradition of burning children alive

This was not a Jewish practice, so where in the world did you get this from?

 

[metis]

One of those 613 laws claim a Jew has the right to own a slave. Jews are allowed to beat their slave to death male or female.
I call that a perversion.

Slaves had rights under Jewish Law [halacha], so maybe read this:
The Torah and the Talmud contain various rules about how to treat slaves. Biblical rules for treatment of Jewish slaves were more lenient than for non-Jewish slaves[71][72][73] and the Talmud insisted that Jewish slaves should be granted similar food, drink, lodging, and bedding, to that which their master would grant to himself.[74] Laws existed that specified punishment of owners that killed slaves.[75][76] Jewish slaves were often treated as property; for example, they were not allowed to be counted towards the quorum, equal to 10 men, needed for public worship.[77] Maimonides and other halachic authorities forbade or strongly discouraged any unethical treatment of slaves, Jewish or not.[78][79] Some accounts indicate that Jewish slave-owners were affectionate, and would not sell slaves to a harsh master[80][obsolete source] and that Jewish slaves were treated as members of the slave-owner's family.[81]

Scholars are unsure to what extent the laws encouraging humane treatment were followed. In the 19th century, Jewish scholars such as Moses Mielziner and Samuel Krauss studied slave-ownership by ancient Jews, and generally concluded that Jewish slaves were treated as merely temporary bondsman, and that Jewish owners treated slaves with special compassion.[82] However, 20th century scholars such as Solomon Zeitlin and Ephraim Urbach, examined Jewish slave-ownership practices more critically, and their historical accounts generally conclude that Jews did own slaves at least through the Maccabbean period, and that it was probably more ubiquitous and humane than earlier scholars had maintained.[83] Professor Catherine Hezser explains the differing conclusions by suggesting that the 19th century scholars were "emphasizing the humanitarian aspects and moral values of ancient Judaism, Mielziner, Grunfeld, Farbstein, and Krauss [to argue] that the Jewish tradition was not inferior to early Christian teachings on slaves and slavery."[82] -- Jewish views on slavery - Wikipedia

And just for the record, I do not condone slavery.

 

[nPeace]

Paul is a Pharisee, Hebrew/Jewish temple priest that demands people pay money for blood sacrifices that pay his bills making him rich. ALL Jews agreed Jesus should die because the High Priest Caiaphas demanded it because they were going broke losing people that no longer believed that blood sacrifice removed sin so they no longer supported the temple nor paid for money sacrifices. They were whole having their sins removed with merciful water baptism and wanted nothing to do with temple blood sacrifice laws.
Paul claimed no one was more zealous in support for the temple beliefs than Paul is, and Paul claims he is the "Hebrew of Hebrews".
Matthew 26:57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. 59Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;"
Understand PAUL is a Pharisee, a chief priest under the High Priest, and Paul sought false witness against Jesus meaning Paul invents lies to discredit Jesus.
Paul profits from blood sacrifice money and is against anyone saying God does not require blood sacrifices to remove sin. Saul is Paul.
Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." Paul not only threatens to kill Christians, but Paul also SLAUGHTERS them.
Paul supports the High Priest, kills people for rejecting blood sacrifice for sin removal and was smart enough with his religious craft of lying as a false witness, to sway people into paying Paul to teach them that God demands blood sacrifice for sin removal, so it was correct and necessary to demand the death of Jesus just like the High Priest did.
Paul continues to monetarily profit from the death of an innocent life just like Paul did in the Jewish temple. The difference between Saul and Paul is that now Paul is paid the money Paul requires as tithes, not the High Priest and Paul refuses to pay the High Priest he still claims to support, any money even after the temple demanded that Paul give them their cut of the profits. Paul is a murdering, lying, thief and his beliefs are based on self-exaltation and greed as Paul forms his own new religion leading people away from the new religion Jesus established.

The scripture do not say the things you are claiming.
Rather Paul acted shrewdly, like Solomon - with great wisdom.
Acts 23:6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "Brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. It is because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial."
What Paul hoped to accomplish, resulted.
Acts 23:7 As soon as he had said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.

However, Paul was a disciple of Christ, regardless of his background - whether Jew, or of the Pharisees.
Acts 26:5 They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that I lived as a Pharisee, adhering to the strictest sect of our religion.

It is like, when we are born in a certain land, and we become educated at a particular institute. We may be known as a Chinese, and a Samaria, but when we become Christian, we are disciples - followers of Christ.

The scriptures say that is what Paul was... but you reject that.

 

[Triumph]

Slaves had rights under Jewish Law [halacha], so maybe read this:
The Torah and the Talmud contain various rules about how to treat slaves. Biblical rules for treatment of Jewish slaves were more lenient than for non-Jewish slaves[71][72][73] and the Talmud insisted that Jewish slaves should be granted similar food, drink, lodging, and bedding, to that which their master would grant to himself.[74] Laws existed that specified punishment of owners that killed slaves.[75][76] Jewish slaves were often treated as property; for example, they were not allowed to be counted towards the quorum, equal to 10 men, needed for public worship.[77] Maimonides and other halachic authorities forbade or strongly discouraged any unethical treatment of slaves, Jewish or not.[78][79] Some accounts indicate that Jewish slave-owners were affectionate, and would not sell slaves to a harsh master[80][obsolete source] and that Jewish slaves were treated as members of the slave-owner's family.[81]

Scholars are unsure to what extent the laws encouraging humane treatment were followed. In the 19th century, Jewish scholars such as Moses Mielziner and Samuel Krauss studied slave-ownership by ancient Jews, and generally concluded that Jewish slaves were treated as merely temporary bondsman, and that Jewish owners treated slaves with special compassion.[82] However, 20th century scholars such as Solomon Zeitlin and Ephraim Urbach, examined Jewish slave-ownership practices more critically, and their historical accounts generally conclude that Jews did own slaves at least through the Maccabbean period, and that it was probably more ubiquitous and humane than earlier scholars had maintained.[83] Professor Catherine Hezser explains the differing conclusions by suggesting that the 19th century scholars were "emphasizing the humanitarian aspects and moral values of ancient Judaism, Mielziner, Grunfeld, Farbstein, and Krauss [to argue] that the Jewish tradition was not inferior to early Christian teachings on slaves and slavery."[82] -- Jewish views on slavery - Wikipedia

And just for the record, I do not condone slavery.

The Jews sold even their own family members into slavery including brothers and children. What is "humane" about selling a defenseless child to a man? What purpose do you think a man would BUY a child for limited use?
The Hebrew Father would accept the child back after a specified amount of time if the buyer no longer wanted the child, but not for a refund. That made the child available to be sold again.
Jesus taught no one had a God given right to own any slave or to sell the life of another into slavery.

 

[nPeace]

The Jews sold even their own family members into slavery including brothers and children. What is "humane" about selling a defenseless child to a man? What purpose do you think a man would BUY a child for limited use?
The Hebrew Father would accept the child back after a specified amount of time if the buyer no longer wanted the child, but not for a refund. That made the child available to be sold again.

Slavery was a practice already being carried out by the Jews, before Jehovah redeemed them.
God did not immediately, and abruptly end their practice, but he put laws in place to regulate it.
It was however, not something he implimented.
He eventually brought it to an end, but it took time, since it was common practice.

(Leviticus 25:39-46) 39 “‘If your brother who lives nearby becomes poor and he has to sell himself to you, you must not force him to do slave labor. 40 He should be treated like a hired worker, like a settler. He should serve with you until the Jubilee year. 41 Then he will leave you, he and his children with him, and return to his family. He should return to the property of his forefathers. 42 For they are my slaves whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. They should not sell themselves the way a slave is sold. 43 You must not treat him cruelly, and you must be in fear of your God. 44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you, from them you may buy a male or a female slave. 45 Also from the sons of the foreign settlers who are residing with you, from them and from their families that are born to them in your land you may buy slaves, and they will become your possession. 46 You may pass them on as an inheritance to your sons after you to inherit as a permanent possession. You may use them as workers, but you must not subject your Israelite brothers to cruel treatment.

 

[metis]

What is "humane" about selling a defenseless child to a man? What purpose do you think a man would BUY a child for limited use?

Didn't you read my last sentence?

Jesus taught no one had a God given right to own any slave or to sell the life of another into slavery.

Jesus didn't terminate slavery.

There are 58 verses that mention slavery in the NT, and none of them abolishes it. Here's a link to all 58: Bible, Revised Standard Version (umich.edu)