Pat Condell on Feminism and Islam

[idav]

Is it the worst part of the Sharia?

That's interesting, when the caller said treat slaves as equals "an oxymoron if I ever heard one". I could swear I read something just like that sentiment in the Bible.

To your question I think maybe a big issue is how seriously Muslims take their religion compared to most others which reminds me of something @LuisDantas said that resonated a bit, which was something to the effect that Islam goes beyond being a religion and becomes more of an obsession, which I take to mean for extremist types.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

First, I applaud your perspective. Next, I mean no snarkiness with this question: If you take this perspective, then why try to force Islam into a reasonable set of ideas at all? What does Islam have to offer you? (I've asked this question many times, and never felt convinced by the answers. A lot of times I'll get answers that conflate a culture with the ideas of Islam. So, I don't know your cultural background, maybe your culture is strongly tied to Islam?)

You seem to be assuming that Islaam is not compatible with these things. I believe it is, so I'm not forcing anything.

Islaam - its strong form of monotheism, the five pillars - work as a framework for me. A lot of the rest is application or culture.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I don't know you, but if every Muslim was like you I might convert. I used to pray with Sufi Muslims at a mosque in New York. I thought about converting.

If I looked at the practice of many Muslims around the globe, I sure as hell wouldn't convert to Islaam! I've heard the argument, but for me it's about the (basics of the) religion and how it speaks to me and my reality, rather than those who (claim to) practice various versions of it (as perhaps it speaks to their realities). I believe Islaam can accommodate all versions. I think diversity in a religious tradition is a very good thing. A sign of a religion's maturity, rather than a problem as some would like to make it out to be.

Sufi forms of Islaam are I think a good place to start. I'm a convert to Islaam (which may, or may not, explain some of my more heterodox beliefs!) and I came to Islaam (like quite a lot of 'Westerners') through particular Sufi understandings of Islaam (although in my case, it was through Persian poetry rather than a particular Sufi school of practice).

Whatever religion one goes for, I believe it's got to be about how that religion speaks to you and your reality, rather than someone else's.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Ahhh! Like "doing my own thing," in the USA.

*

Yup!

 

[Rational Agnostic]

If I looked at the practice of many Muslims around the globe, I sure as hell wouldn't convert to Islaam!.

Glad to know that! You seem like a nice person.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

What you need is a Muslim majority country that shows clear progress in enhancing human rights, tolerance, prosperity, democracy etc. Without that one is justified to doubt if Islam and modernity is compatible not only for an individual but for an entire society as a whole. One needs exemplars that are seen to work.

Alternatively, breaking the link between religion and state, as has happened with other religions, so that it is much more about individuals and their practice of their religion, rather than looking for an exemplar of a Muslim majority country. I'm not a fan of Sharee'ah as it is typically understood.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Glad to know that! You seem like a nice person.

Thanks!

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Actually, no, misogyny has most definitely not been cultivated in Christianity just as much as it has in Islam.

Historically, it has. But most forms of Christianity have moved on in a way that most forms of Islaam haven't, yet.

In Muslim countries, women are treated horrifically.

In some Muslim countries and communities, that is true. But not all.

Women have been arrested in Saudi Arabia for driving cars or even wearing skirts (in 120 degree weather).

Sadly, that is very true.

The horrible practice of female genital mutilation is continually practiced in Islamic countries

Not all Muslim countries and communities. And it is also practiced in non-Muslim countries and communities (notably in Africa, where the practice likely started).

and women are basically treated like property.

In some Muslim countries, yes. But not all. Starting to see a pattern yet?

It is preposterous for you to say that Christianity treats women just as badly as Islam.

That's not my understanding of what idav said. I believe idav was talking about the history more than the present situation.

Did you know that the Qur'an actually instructs Muslim men to beat their wives?

It's a bit more complicated than that, but yes, Muslim men do have that option as a last resort according to the Qur'aan and Sharee'ah (with the emphasis under Sharee'ah firmly on last resort and 'lightly'). But I agree, that isn't much better. The underlying issue still remains.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually, no, misogyny has most definitely not been cultivated in Christianity just as much as it has in Islam.

Christian views of Women - Mysogeny - Bad News About Christianity

 

[The_Fisher_King]

About 1/3 to a 1/2 of the world's Muslims want Sharia to be the law of the land.

In other words about 2/3 to a 1/2 of the world's Muslims DON'T WANT Sharee'ah to be the law of the land...So quite possibly the majority, and certainly not a minority...

If you are a Muslim who defends secularism, you are - by the definition of Islam - being un-Islamic.

Nope. Only according to those who support Sharee'ah. Not 'Islaam', which is not the monolithic boogeyman it is typically pointed out to be.

To me, such Muslims ought to create a new sect or denomination.

Why should we? Why can we not just get on with our everyday lives like everyone else?

It feels hypocritical for a Muslim to ask not to be harassed when their ideology is deserving of harassment.

Why shouldn't harass everyone who promotes horrible ideologies? Why should Muslims get a pass?

One has to be careful here. Don't harass Muslims. But have at their beliefs, views, ideologies, practices, by all means!

 

[sayak83]

Alternatively, breaking the link between religion and state, as has happened with other religions, so that it is much more about individuals and their practice of their religion, rather than looking for an exemplar of a Muslim majority country. I'm not a fan of Sharee'ah as it is typically understood.

This has proved to be a challenge. For example Turkey was supposed to have a strictly secular constitution, but the last decade has seen it increasingly revert back to Islamic laws. One can look at Bangladesh and see the same thing.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

This has proved to be a challenge. For example Turkey was supposed to have a strictly secular constitution, but the last decade has seen it increasingly revert back to Islamic laws. One can look at Bangladesh and see the same thing.

Give it time. These things take time.

Moreover, what about Albania and Bosnia? Both Muslim-majority countries.

 

[sayak83]

Give it time. These things take time.

Moreover, what about Albania and Bosnia? Both Muslim-majority countries.

Very new countries though. They were part of communist Yugoslavia which was very secular. Let's see how they go and hope for the best.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Very new countries though. They were part of communist Yugoslavia which was very secular. Let's see how they go and hope for the best.

Amen to that!

 

[icehorse]

Not 'Islaam', which is not the monolithic boogeyman it is typically pointed out to be.

Is this "Islaam" documented anywhere? Can I read its tenets?

 

[Notanumber]

That's interesting, when the caller said treat slaves as equals "an oxymoron if I ever heard one". I could swear I read something just like that sentiment in the Bible.

The point is, we are no longer living in biblical times.

Non-Islamics have accepted that fact.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Historically, it has. But most forms of Christianity have moved on in a way that most forms of Islaam haven't, yet.



In some Muslim countries and communities, that is true. But not all.



Sadly, that is very true.



Not all Muslim countries and communities. And it is also practiced in non-Muslim countries and communities (notably in Africa, where the practice likely started).



In some Muslim countries, yes. But not all. Starting to see a pattern yet?



That's not my understanding of what idav said. I believe idav was talking about the history more than the present situation.



It's a bit more complicated than that, but yes, Muslim men do have that option as a last resort according to the Qur'aan and Sharee'ah (with the emphasis under Sharee'ah firmly on last resort and 'lightly'). But I agree, that isn't much better. The underlying issue still remains.

I'm glad you see the issues with fundamentalist Islam. Like I said before, I think you're a very reasonable and nice person. I have nothing against peaceful Muslims, nothing at all. However, I do have major issues with literal interpretation of the Qur'an, as well as the horrific abuses of human rights and misogyny in many Muslim-dominated countries.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Is this "Islaam" documented anywhere? Can I read its tenets?

lol

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Is this "Islaam" documented anywhere? Can I read its tenets?

Try your local library. Chances are there'll be a few books introducing you to the basics of Islaam . If you want a somewhat different take on Islaam, try some introductions to Sufi Islaam.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I'm glad you see the issues with fundamentalist Islam. Like I said before, I think you're a very reasonable and nice person. I have nothing against peaceful Muslims, nothing at all. However, I do have major issues with literal interpretation of the Qur'an, as well as the horrific abuses of human rights and misogyny in many Muslim-dominated countries.

I'm a libertarian, so anything which contravenes liberty - and there's a lot of that going about in many Muslim countries and communities - is going to be a massive problem for me. Misogyny whatever its manifestation is one of my biggest bugbears.