Part of being Privileged is not having to think about being Privileged

[Horrorble]

Right ok...cool. You have arab blood. I'm half arab as well.

great....

 

[ignition]

Horrorble, I learned when I was in my early twenties of a secret that my mom had kept from my brothers and me all the while we were growing up. I didn't learn the secret from her, but from one of her best friends.

You see, my mother was the Chief Executive Officer of a small to mid-sized corporation. Her position would have normally made for a comfortable living. But my brothers and I grew up below the Federal poverty line for a family of four. As you might imagine, we experienced several hardships as a result of that. In fact, my younger brother was somewhat traumatized by the experience, and I and my older brother were both greatly influenced by it.

To get to the point, only when I was in my early twenties did I find out the reason for it. Our mother had been told by the chairman of her board, who was something of a misogynist, that, if she were to receive a salary comparable to what a man in her position might demand, then he (the chairman) would be forced by political considerations to give her job to the first man who came along saying "he had a better claim to the job than she did by virtue of the fact she was doing men's work".

Consequently, mom was forced to either find a better position for herself (and in that small town, there simply were none -- it would have meant moving away from family and friends) or toe the line and accept what was offered to her.

So far as I know, that was the sole reason I grew up in poverty.

Seriously, what a ********. Must have been pretty hard. Nobody deserves that.

 

[Alceste]

With respect, Alceste, I think you're comments are unfair for a couple of reasons, but perhaps mainly in so far as they might imply that I intended a criticism of anyone who takes offense at being insulted or discriminated against. I don't believe I did. As far as I'm concerned, it is a matter for the individual to decide for his or herself whether or not to take offense at someone's insults, etc. I was merely pointing out that in my case, I've noticed that taking offense has negative consequences to me, and that noticing that has reduced the length and depth of the offense I take. That seems to me pretty far from saying that everyone should or ought to be like me.

OK, you may be right. I've had two deaths in the family this week, so I might be leaning a little toward hyperbole lately.

I suppose I am making a distinction between "insults" - which really are nothing to me - they don't even hit my radar - and derogatory comments and attitudes about women and minorities that reflect the reality that we live in a genuinely oppressive society in many respects.

What I take issue with is the suggestion that we are supposed to have total control of our emotional reactions to stupid comments and attitudes regardless of our personal experiences, and regardless of the real social issues such comments reflect back at us. And I take issue with the implication that no comment, ever, by anyone, is actually worth having an emotional reaction to. Anger can be a powerful tool and motivator if directed in a positive way. In retrospect, I should have used my considerable anger to sue the pants off the film union and spend a couple years gloating, giving them the finger and rolling around in my winnings. I didn't. I "controlled my anger" in the hope that I could still prevail through the existing system. That strategy failed, so there wasn't much I could do with whatever was left over.

I did eventually learn how to use that anger, and I make more money per hour now than I did then - it's just that I no longer have 70 hours of work per week. (I'm working on it though. ) These days, if I don't like the way something is organized and I feel limited or excluded from something I want, I do it myself and do a better job of it. Plus, the work I'm doing now I can do half drunk, at home, in my pyjamas, and nobody is ever going to ask me to suck him off in the middle of my work day and get me fired if I don't comply.

 

[ignition]

Oh c'mon that's barely a swear word. Pretty harsh censorship.

 

[DallasApple]

OK, you may be right. I've had two deaths in the family this week, so I might be leaning a little toward hyperbole lately.

I know you didn't ask for this ..but


:flower2:

 

[Sunstone]

I've had two deaths in the family this week, so I might be leaning a little toward hyperbole lately.

I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope your memory of those who are now gone can be of some consolation to you. If you ever want to talk about them, if you think that could help, please feel free to PM me. You're someone who has endeared me to them, and I would like to help, if I can.

I suppose I am making a distinction between "insults" - which really are nothing to me - they don't even hit my radar - and derogatory comments and attitudes about women and minorities that reflect the reality that we live in a genuinely oppressive society in many respects.

I think I can see your point that "mere insults" do not nearly so much demand our taking action against them as do insults that support systemic oppression.

What I take issue with is the suggestion that we are supposed to have total control of our emotional reactions to stupid comments and attitudes regardless of our personal experiences, and regardless of the real social issues such comments reflect back at us.

Here we might have an appearance of disagreement, but I wonder just how real that appearance is? Because to me, the key phrase is "supposed to". I don't think we're supposed to do anything. That is, I don't see it as incumbent on us to not take offense.

And I take issue with the implication that no comment, ever, by anyone, is actually worth having an emotional reaction to. Anger can be a powerful tool and motivator if directed in a positive way.

To my mind, that raises a fascinating issue that has not been touched on until you just did. Which is the fact that emotions are necessary to action. So, if that's indeed the case, then they are significantly necessary to, say, opposing the systemic oppression of people.

 

[Sunstone]

That is very sad, as we can see women have similar experiences.

People can tell me white males are not in any way privileged, but I've never yet heard tell of a white male who was paid significantly less than his female counterparts -- much less paid below the poverty line! -- because if he was paid more then his job would be deemed "woman's work" and a woman would be given it at a substantial increase in compensation.

 

[DallasApple]

I suppose I am making a distinction between "insults" - which really are nothing to me - they don't even hit my radar - and derogatory comments and attitudes about women and minorities that reflect the reality that we live in a genuinely oppressive society in many respects.

Yeah and grabbing and groping.SCHOOL for me was grabbing and groping and work for me was.I "think" I "underacheived' under the pressure.I quit school and just just took my money I made under the shelter of my parents and put it in a nest like a squirrel.I had a tax burden so I listened to my brother and bought stock in MS .Continued to save (working mind you in a hostile enviroment ) and had enough money by 19 to buy a house (down payment) to marry my husband who was chomping at the bit to get married /get out of his parents house + he would get sex on tap.(no...)...and he had no money.Just a job.

We married AFTER we bought the house because I felt like I was being
trapped"..BUT at 20 we married I moved in MINE and his house (I paid half the mortgage for 7 moths before I even moved in)..My MS GREW...so I figured out ..HEY all these chips say "Intel" so I bought some Intel...I had 50,000 (on paper) in the bank by 28.Owned a home.I had 100,000 in the bank by 31.

I believe my BIGGEST mistake..???Was NOT continuing to work.Getting BULLIED and sexed out of school and work.DEPENDING on a man.Probably unfair to him too.

BUT what I KNOW is ???What I had to face DAILY to go to school keep a job ???Takes the heart of someone at the time I was WAY weaker than.

 

[Horrorble]

People can tell me white males are not in any way privileged, but I've never yet heard tell of a white male who was paid significantly less than his female counterparts -- much less paid below the poverty line! -- because if he was paid more then his job would be deemed "woman's work" and a woman would be given it at a substantial increase in compensation.

I think people are confused by what we mean by privilege, yes a person of colour can discriminate against a white person or bully them for being white, yes a woman can discriminate against a male or bully them because they are male, that does not mean systematic privilege does not exist. Only because that one black girl was a bit mean to me and told me I think I am so nice cause I am light skinned, doesn't mean colourism doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that I am no longer idealised for being light skinned on the whole, just because she was prejudice against me.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

OK, you may be right. I've had two deaths in the family this week, so I might be leaning a little toward hyperbole lately.

I suppose I am making a distinction between "insults" - which really are nothing to me - they don't even hit my radar - and derogatory comments and attitudes about women and minorities that reflect the reality that we live in a genuinely oppressive society in many respects.

I think this is where I found a disconnect, and perhaps some clarification would help. I find myself wanting to describe the experience better too, especially when I run into folks who think that dealing with oppression (or what they would call simple insults) is easily handled with the right mindset.

In all fairness to Sunstone, he did support my point earlier that I mentioned privileged people don't have insults layered on top of each other from individuals, groups, and entire infrastructures. I think he was finding validity in KT's assessment of how to deal with struggles.

Where I understand the frustration is that you and I may look at KT's and Sunstone's gender, read them talking about how simple it is to just square a mental exercise in, and then say out loud, "Hey look, I've done these, and it works, yes, but not when I've been discriminated against squarely because of my gender."

I'm not sure if that's what is really happening, and I'm willing to give them both the benefit of the doubt considering their history with pro-feminist and equal rights discussions and dialogue before. But I understand the knee-jerk reaction because, as the very OP suggests, privileged people live in a different bubble and a different frame of reference.

What I take issue with is the suggestion that we are supposed to have total control of our emotional reactions to stupid comments and attitudes regardless of our personal experiences, and regardless of the real social issues such comments reflect back at us. And I take issue with the implication that no comment, ever, by anyone, is actually worth having an emotional reaction to. Anger can be a powerful tool and motivator if directed in a positive way. In retrospect, I should have used my considerable anger to sue the pants off the film union and spend a couple years gloating, giving them the finger and rolling around in my winnings. I didn't. I "controlled my anger" in the hope that I could still prevail through the existing system. That strategy failed, so there wasn't much I could do with whatever was left over.

I did eventually learn how to use that anger, and I make more money per hour now than I did then - it's just that I no longer have 70 hours of work per week. (I'm working on it though. ) These days, if I don't like the way something is organized and I feel limited or excluded from something I want, I do it myself and do a better job of it. Plus, the work I'm doing now I can do half drunk, at home, in my pyjamas, and nobody is ever going to ask me to suck him off in the middle of my work day and get me fired if I don't comply.

I see what you're saying. My question to anyone who thinks that being offended is just a matter of choice, and we should all take such advice of remaining Zen-like and having psychological insights when reproductive rights are threatened, or when getting fired from a job not because of performance but gender....what kind of progress would we have?

I hesitate to assume the suffragists while fighting to get the vote were considering how their emotions were simply getting in the way of their happiness.

 

[Sunstone]

I think people are confused by what we mean by privilege, yes a person of colour can discriminate against a white person or bully them for being white, yes a woman can discriminate against a male or bully them because they are male, that does not mean systematic privilege does not exist. Only because that one black girl was a bit mean to me and told me I think I am so nice cause I am light skinned, doesn't mean colourism doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that I am no longer idealised for being light skinned on the whole, just because she was prejudice against me.

That's an excellent point! I suspect just about everyone can think of instances when a "minority person" has acted in prejudice against them, or against someone they know. But such acts are not backed up by a whole oppressive system.

I was once told by one of my clients that I had to employ a certain Black woman for what amounted to merely "political" reasons. A few days after she began working for me, I was informed by my other Black employees that she hated Whites and was because of her blind hatred out to get me. They warned me, for instance, never to allow myself to be alone with her because she had said she wanted to set me up for sexual harassment charges. I think to some people, her actions would be taken as evidence that I was not privileged as a White heterosexual male.

But to my way of figuring it, nothing she did and nothing she intended to do in any way lessened the privilege I have because of my race, sexual orientation, and gender. It's like saying that because someone tried and failed to sideswipe my car, I cannot possibly be driving a Mercedes. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Sunstone]

My question to anyone who thinks that being offended is just a matter of choice, and we should all take such advice of remaining Zen-like and having psychological insights when reproductive rights are threatened, or when getting fired from a job not because of performance but gender....what kind of progress would we have?

I hesitate to assume the suffragists while fighting to get the vote were considering how their emotions were simply getting in the way of their happiness.

As I wrote to Alceste, emotions are necessary for us humans to take action. So, I would answer your question to the effect that we would most likely have a very passive world if we didn't at least sometimes allow reign to our emotions.

I might add that the very word "emotion" is derived from a Greek word meaning "action" or "to take action". I'm nerd enough to mention it.

 

[Sunstone]

As I wrote to Alceste, emotions are necessary for us humans to take action. So, I would answer your question to the effect that we would most likely have a very passive world if we didn't at least sometimes allow reign to our emotions.

I might add that the very word "emotion" is derived from a Greek word meaning "action" or "to take action". I'm nerd enough to mention it.

By the way, I do not mean to imply that it hasn't been my experience that certain emotions tend to have negative consequences for me. And so far as I know, that is especially true for me when it comes to taking offense. But apparently, that's not everyone's experience.

 

[Horrorble]

That's an excellent point! I suspect just about everyone can think of instances when a "minority person" has acted in prejudice against them, or against someone they know. But such acts are not backed up by a whole oppressive system.

I was once told by one of my clients that I had to employ a certain Black woman for what amounted to merely "political" reasons. A few days after she began working for me, I was informed by my other Black employees that she hated Whites and was because of her blind hatred out to get me. They warned me, for instance, never to allow myself to be alone with her because she had said she wanted to set me up for sexual harassment charges. I think to some people, her actions would be taken as evidence that I was not privileged as a White heterosexual male.

But to my way of figuring it, nothing she did and nothing she intended to do in any way lessened the privilege I have because of my race, sexual orientation, and gender. It's like saying that because someone tried and failed to sideswipe my car, I cannot possibly be driving a Mercedes. At least that's how I see it.

I can think of another situation with mum, when she came to the UK from Ghana she used to get picked on mostly by African Caribbean girls not white girls, they would tell her that she was lying about being from Africa in a hostile way because of her hair and such (this was something my mum never experienced in Ghana, in Ghana she was teased for not having her parents around not because she was mixed), that doesn't mean those same girls never suffered or experienced systematic oppression.

 

[Alceste]

I think this is where I found a disconnect, and perhaps some clarification would help. I find myself wanting to describe the experience better too, especially when I run into folks who think that dealing with oppression (or what they would call simple insults) is easily handled with the right mindset.

In all fairness to Sunstone, he did support my point earlier that I mentioned privileged people don't have insults layered on top of each other from individuals, groups, and entire infrastructures. I think he was finding validity in KT's assessment of how to deal with struggles.

Where I understand the frustration is that you and I may look at KT's and Sunstone's gender, read them talking about how simple it is to just square a mental exercise in, and then say out loud, "Hey look, I've done these, and it works, yes, but not when I've been discriminated against squarely because of my gender."

Heck, I have an exceptionally thick skin IRL. Half the time I don't even notice somebody is trying to insult me (that drives malicious people and narcissists absolutely bonkers). When I do notice, it's such a clumsy and inaccurate effort to find my buttons that it just makes me laugh, maybe come up with some kind of snappy retort.

Insults are one thing, expressing attitudes and opinions that perpetuate a system that completely ****** me over is another. Yeah, I'm going to take offense to it, because it cost me, personally, HUGE SUMS of money and many more nebulous assets, such as the amazing feeling I had growing up that I was so strong and clever I could do anything I wanted for a living. (Bless my parents for raising me that way, damn the world for proving them wrong.)

I'm not sure if that's what is really happening, and I'm willing to give them both the benefit of the doubt considering their history with pro-feminist and equal rights discussions and dialogue before. But I understand the knee-jerk reaction because, as the very OP suggests, privileged people live in a different bubble and a different frame of reference.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. You put it better. I'm a little rough around the edges at the moment.

I see what you're saying. My question to anyone who thinks that being offended is just a matter of choice, and we should all take such advice of remaining Zen-like and having psychological insights when reproductive rights are threatened, or when getting fired from a job not because of performance but gender....what kind of progress would we have?

I hesitate to assume the suffragists while fighting to get the vote were considering how their emotions were simply getting in the way of their happiness.

Oh they got told that kind of crap all the time. Comes up again and again in my research of the era. It was common knowledge that the only way for a woman to be happy and healthy was to give up any aspirations of economic or political autonomy and accept her god-given, natural role as a wife and mother.

Screw that - I am glad they were ****** off, because they really got the job done. (Or at least started).

 

[Sunstone]

I can think of another situation with mum, when she came to the UK from Ghana she used to get picked on mostly by African Caribbean girls not white girls, they would tell her that she was lying about being from Africa in a hostile way because of her hair and such (this was something my mum never experienced in Ghana, in Ghana she was teased for not having her parents around not because she was mixed), that doesn't mean those same girls never suffered or experienced systematic oppression.

Methinks that's a nearly perfect illustration of the point being made.

 

[Father Heathen]

I was joking hence the silly face (I thought that would of made it obvious)
I already knew Sunstone was an older man (not his exact age) but I knew.

Of course you were joking, but jokes too can be insensitive. I knew you two weren't intentionally so, however. I also knew Sunstone wouldn't be hurt by it. I just thought the comments came off a little tactless. However, when it comes to tact and sensitivity, I'm probably one of the worst offenders here so never mind.

 

[Magic Man]

I see what you're saying. My question to anyone who thinks that being offended is just a matter of choice, and we should all take such advice of remaining Zen-like and having psychological insights when reproductive rights are threatened, or when getting fired from a job not because of performance but gender....what kind of progress would we have?

I hesitate to assume the suffragists while fighting to get the vote were considering how their emotions were simply getting in the way of their happiness.

This is what I was getting at with Sunstone earlier. I'd also point to progress in equal rights for the LGBT community. It seems to me emotional reactions to systemic discrimination is the only way these things change. It's not the cold, reasoning response that gets attention and makes people aware. It's people saying "This is BS, and it needs to change". Granted, you also need a more tempered response at times, but without the emotional one, you don't even get started.

 

[Horrorble]

Of course you were joking, but jokes too can be insensitive. I knew you two weren't intentionally so, however. I also knew Sunstone wouldn't be hurt by it. I just thought the comments came off a little tactless. However, when it comes to tact and sensitivity, I'm probably one of the worst offenders here so never mind.

I can be really bad when it comes to lacking tact, I'm used to getting teased because of how I look mostly by complete strangers, so it's desensitived me maybe.
Can I just say I usually tease out of fondness for that person? (God I hope I don't sound like a sadist:areyoucra)

 

[Lord'sChild]

I've heard it said that part of being privileged is not having to think about how you privileged.

If you're White, you don't need to think about -- and you can even deny without consequence to you -- that 80% of the police stop and searches in your neighborhood happen to young men of color.

nothing to do with privilege.

Most crimes are caused by blacks, so it's only commonsense the cops stop them more.