1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Parshah Vayeitzei

Discussion in 'Judaism DIR' started by IndigoChild5559, Dec 7, 2019.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    3,714
    Ratings:
    +1,410
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Some Jews are more enlightened by the many outstanding commentaries on it. Other Jews seem to primarily resonate with the vision in a deep, strong spiritual way. What does this reading do for you?
     
  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,821
    Ratings:
    +3,475
    Religion:
    Judaism
    It's all about the ladder for me. I enjoy going deep into the parsha. But I didn't this week.
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    37,631
    Ratings:
    +11,087
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The treatment of Leah is disturbing, if not reprehensible.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,821
    Ratings:
    +3,475
    Religion:
    Judaism
    If I remember there are differences of opinion and apologetics to soften the impact of this. But it doesn't change the letters on the scroll.
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    37,631
    Ratings:
    +11,087
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I'm shocked!

    Right.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,381
    Ratings:
    +7,741
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    You mean by her father?
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    37,631
    Ratings:
    +11,087
    Religion:
    Judaism
    No, I was thinking of her husband. One gets the sense that she saw herself as little more than an unloved son-producing machine
     
  8. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,381
    Ratings:
    +7,741
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    I don't see how you can come to any conclusions about how Jacob actually treated her. The only interactions that are recorded between Jacob and his wives are the one time Rachel complained to Jacob that she doesn't have any children and the time Jacob told them both that it was time to leave Laban's house. We see virtually nothing about Jacob's treatment of Leah let alone enough to deem it disturbing or reprehensible.

    Not this one. I agree that she seems to see herself correctly as unloved at least in comparison to Rachel. But as a son producing machine? I can only disagree. I think it's pretty clear from the context that both matriarchs consider having their children as important.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,821
    Ratings:
    +3,475
    Religion:
    Judaism
    If I recall, from the very painful memories of trying to assimilate into a Conservative shul... the objection is focused on some very specific words in the Parsha and the implications of the JPS translation of these words...

    it's about Leah's **eyes**....

    @Jayhawker Soule ... most respectfully... am I assessing this accurately?
     
    #9 dybmh, Dec 11, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,821
    Ratings:
    +3,475
    Religion:
    Judaism
    This ^^ ( in case anyone cares ) was a result of consistent attempts by the clergy ( all of them at this particular Shul, old, young, male, female... ALL ) to locate and identify points of harsh criticism of each and every Parsha, and then present it to the congregation in the sermons each and every week.

    And...

    when counseling the B'nai Mitzvot on their little dvar Torah... they ( the clergy ) would encourage them ( the Children ) to criticize it as well.

    it broke my heart and I am still recovering.

    edit to add: how do I know this about the clergy.... I sat on the "ritual" committee for about 10 months. I was invited to participate because they wanted a "fresh" perspective to hopefully bring more young warm bodies into Shul for... you guessed it... to make minyan. boy oh boy... I had no idea what I was getting myself into.
     
    #10 dybmh, Dec 11, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,821
    Ratings:
    +3,475
    Religion:
    Judaism
    @Tumah ,

    notice the very specific wording here...

    "One gets the sense that she saw herself"

    Saw herself, my friend. It goes back to an English rendering of the description of Leah's **eyes**.

    I am almost certain of it.

    I'm not quite sure why, if this is the case, that @Jayhawker Soule wasn't more expressive in his original post.
     
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,381
    Ratings:
    +7,741
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    The Torah mentions Leah's eyes being soft, but that's before she's married to Jacob.

    The Midrash explains that as the older child, she expected that she would marry Esau while Rachel would marry Jacob. But being righteous, she didn't want to and so she would cry. Her tears were accepted and she even married Jacob first.
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    37,631
    Ratings:
    +11,087
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Yes, it is an inference and I could be mistaken.

    Feeling that something is important is not the same as believing it to be the sole validation of ones worth.
     
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,381
    Ratings:
    +7,741
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    We have no way of knowing how she validated herself or if she even felt the need to. We only have one particular facet of her life described in the text. The text says that she pined for her husband's love and that she named her children after her hope that having them would somehow cause her husband to give her what she wanted. Did she relate the extent of her husband's love to her personal value? The text is silent.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,821
    Ratings:
    +3,475
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Yes,

    But The Reform and Conservative movement do not value any thing in the Midrash, ( unless it can be used to criticize ).

    I mentioned the same exact thing when I heard about this for the first time when I was sitting on a "ritual" committee in a Conservative Shul. When I did that: To quote my friend @IndigoChild5559, "I felt slapped down". Except in my case there was laughing, and mocking by a group of older elites who also sat on the "ritual" committee. Even though those same exact elder elites needed me for their minyan..... It was very confusing.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
Loading...